In Showtimes Dexter, which now has all the episodes on demand on chicago cable at least, is about a serial killer, and one of the subplots is that the father is a cop. The cop recognizes the signs of a murderer in his son, and tries to shape them into a force of good. The show is great. I have watched all seven. If this topic interests you, you will love how accuratly the use his inner landscape; he has none of the normal emotions, etc...

The first research paper I ever wrote in college was on Jeffrey Dahmer.

A child drawing something disturbing (as mentioned in the article) is different than a young child killing and mutilating animals.

Lack of empathy would be a greater red flag than anything else, in my opinion. Lots of children and adults are fascinated by the violence and the macabre. That doesn't make us potential serial killers.

I think that people who have it in them to act on those fascinations are not hindered by a "good" upbringing or conversations on distinguishing real from fantasy. They are fundamentally different from the rest of us.

Jeffrey Dahmer had a messed up childhood (heh, going all the way back to his mother's pregnancy with him), but I don't think it could be called abusive in any traditional sense. From a very young age it was clear that he "wasn't right" and his parents certainly didn't attempt to intervene, but I don't think it would have mattered.

To discover what makes a serial killer function, it is necessary to look back into their past, particularly their adolescent life.

By looking at many and varied cases, it is evident that virtually all serial killers come from dysfunctional backgrounds involving sexual or physical abuse, drugs or alcoholism and their related problems.

Many traits that seem to be universal in all these serial killers, though in varied amounts, include disorganised thinking, bipolar mode disorders, a feeling of resentment towards society brought on by their own failings, sexual frustrations, an inability to be social or socially accepted, over bearing parents and a wild imagination that tends to drag them into a fantasy world.

In a chart of serial killer - childhood development characteristics - created by Ressler, Burgers and Douglas (1990), the three most frequently reported behaviors included day dreaming, compulsive masturbation, and isolation.

Evaluating a psychological profile of a serial killer

I had to face that fact when my brother in-laws kids were living with us. The girl exhibited 9 of 10 signs of a serial killer at 13. (my sis works for a head doctor) It was easy to see this girl was seriously messed up. She accused her oldest brother of rape (untrue) and then later admitted to abusing her younger brothers. I was sad to see the boys go, but not her. I knew it was only a matter of time before her acusations turned to me.

OMG!!! That's horrible! By the sound of it, you're right about accusations at you being next!

Parents have little influence in this area I would imagine. If you give your kids a good start and a good home, then they'll turn out ok

Yes, you can give them a good home etc., But being there, showing and giving love and affection, very important for younger children and if they don't have anyone to show them this at a younger age, then they grow up without knowing and get influenced by the wrong types or things. So I would say parental influence is very important.

I guess my question, and perhaps Forever's, is: Was this the fault of the parents? parents can overlook a lot in the name of love.

I didnt' ask it but that's a good question.

Most serial killers have dysfunctional backgrounds. Frequently they were physically, sexually, or psychologically abused as children and there is often a correlation between their childhood abuse and their crimes.

I would say that would be my guess too Xythe. As I mentioned before,parental influence. But I haven't read that link Trudy cited yet, so who knows what Jeffrey Dahrmer's mom had to say. That might be enlightening.

YES I AM RAISING TWO SERIAL KILLERS!!!!They are hell on the Cheerios!

Captain Crunch beware!!!!!!!!!!!

Haha...



You know, sometimes the things your kids do would make you wonder where they learn that from?!! Sometimes my little one exhibits such deviousness, makes me wonder!

I don't have any experience as a parent.

Your opinions are stil important Raven. Yours might be the objective opinion that sees more than we as parents do.

But I have to wonder if there is anything a parent can do if the kid is born a psychopath, with a lack of conscience. Is there such a thing or is that just tabloid nonsense?

That's a very good question! I don't know the right answer. I would say a parent can't do anything about it if the child is born predesposed this way. If they see the signs early in the child's life they can try to make a difference. Would it help, I don't know.

Reply By: MasonMPosted: Wednesday, November 15, 2006Lots of children are abused and don't become serial killers.

I would imagine long term abuse could cause a child to switch his reasoning off and become non-feeling, dehumanized, such a way that hurting others would be a way of getting back or the only way they know how to relate to others.

Well, you both offer good points. In my opinion it can go either way. As Mason says most children who are aboused don't become psychopaths, but there are those who do and yes, I beleive some use that as their justifciation. So, are we correct in assuming that they are sickos and defective as M said? I would say we are. Cause why else would someone be this way and take pleasure in doing stuff like that, then walk around normal?

but was neglected; could be that the parents see the signs and fear them, and thus resulting in neglect because of this fear that they can't put their finger on? Parents, I guess, hate to think of their offspring as potential monsters, their response would be to ignore the disturbing signs and possibly ignore the child. (Edit: changed poor phrasing. I mean the parents simply deals with it by ignoring the signs.)

Another good point again Raven. Some parents would feel overwhelmed and ignore it; some may get help, if they do get the proper people to respond to their needs. Some parents might even be afraid to get help lest they lose their child. Of course these are only guesstimates of what I would think can happen because I dont' know of anyone or heard about anyone where this has happened. Although I've seen several senarios on television. The latest one being the Showtime series Dexter. Pretty morbid but interesting!

I don't think the parents did anything to make the situation better. They locked themselves in their room on Sundays to have sex all day. I suspect this was not only the time she molested her brothers but also the inspiration. The parents were abusive to each other. They lied and the parents didn't hide it from the kids. When I was talking with the youngest about the things I have automated at my home, I told him my caller ID was announced. His response was, "Then we will know when the bill collectors are calling." He was only seven.

Wow! This is what Raven was talking about! Parental influence and hiding!

She turned her back on her own party. She was unable to deal with these girls as a group because she was not the same person to all of them.She was to each of the girls what they were looking for in a friend. None of the personalities was her own. She was completely unable to function with the group. Had it not been for my wife and I throwing her an amazing birthday party, I feel like the girls would have been squirming for a way to go home.Environment is a factor. Parenting, or lack there of, is a factor but it takes someone who is missing the voice that we all have that says when things are wrong. Instead, I believe, their voice says it's ok or there is no voice at all.

Wow again! I can't imagine what the poor girl went through with those parents to become what she is. This is very sad. While she is obviously a monster by her actions she's obviously a product of her environment and needed professional help. This is so sad. I do understand your feelings about it since you experienced her behaviour first hand John. I can't imagine how frustrating it must have been for you. I hope she is getting the help she needs.

You and your wife are wonderful for taking them in. Lots of times families just look the other way because they don't want their lifestyle cramped caring for kids they didn't produce.

I agree that was good of you guys to do this.

Heres an example of the flaw in your logic:1) All homosexuals are sodomists (true)2) All sodomists are homosexuals (false)See?

I'm sorry I dont' see Trudy. I see what you're saying from what you wrote, understand that Homosexuals are sodomists because of what they do, although it's not all that they do. I understand that not all sodomists are homosexual because heterosexual folks engage in anal sex. But I dont' see the reasoning of what that has to do with serial killers being abused etc. I'm just trying to understand your explanation.

In Showtimes Dexter, which now has all the episodes on demand on chicago cable at least, is about a serial killer, and one of the subplots is that the father is a cop. The cop recognizes the signs of a murderer in his son, and tries to shape them into a force of good. The show is great. I have watched all seven. If this topic interests you, you will love how accuratly the use his inner landscape; he has none of the normal emotions, etc...

I've seen it and do watch it. I find it pretty interesting!

A child drawing something disturbing (as mentioned in the article) is different than a young child killing and mutilating animals.

So true Tex!

Lack of empathy would be a greater red flag than anything else, in my opinion. Lots of children and adults are fascinated by the violence and the macabre. That doesn't make us potential serial killers.

Great point!

think that people who have it in them to act on those fascinations are not hindered by a "good" upbringing or conversations on distinguishing real from fantasy. They are fundamentally different from the rest of us.

Another good point! You must have written a great paper!

Jeffrey Dahmer had a messed up childhood (heh, going all the way back to his mother's pregnancy with him), but I don't think it could be called abusive in any traditional sense. From a very young age it was clear that he "wasn't right" and his parents certainly didn't attempt to intervene, but I don't think it would have mattered.

Here again is the parental involvement coming up again. It's terrible that they could have done nothing to help because he was just, to use a word and not a very good one, defective.

To discover what makes a serial killer function, it is necessary to look back into their past, particularly their adolescent life.

Good point Xythe!

You guys had some impressive comments that opened my eyes to even more. Thx! {note, just a thank you not end of conversation}

Heres an example of the flaw in your logic:1) All homosexuals are sodomists (true)2) All sodomists are homosexuals (false)See? I'm sorry I dont' see Trudy. I see what you're saying from what you wrote, understand that Homosexuals are sodomists because of what they do, although it's not all that they do. I understand that not all sodomists are homosexual because heterosexual folks engage in anal sex. But I dont' see the reasoning of what that has to do with serial killers being abused etc. I'm just trying to understand your explanation.

Serenity, that quote you're responding to wasn't mine!

I read somewhere that ours is the only country that blames the parents when kids, that have had a good upbringing, turnout bad.

Tex makes a lot of good points. As did Raven. I still haven't found that link for Joyce's interview with a reporter. She gave him a few interviews, very rare for her. Lionel was the one that loved to talk to the press, wrote a book, didn't want Jeff's brain examined, fought in court to have it destroyed. Joyce wanted doctors to study the brain to see if they could learn anything about Jeff from it.

Joyce went on to become an aids activist and social worker in Fresno, Lionel retired, what creeps me out about Lionel is that he said once in an interview on A & E that he once had the same fascination as Jeff, with bones. That he had the same curiousity. 2 shrinks have said that Jeff's illness wasn't the result of anything the parents did or didn't do.

P.S. here's that interview, finally!http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20001201/ai_n10657226

I hope she is getting the help she needs.

Nope. Even while we were working to correct her issues her parents were telling her that she didn't need to take her medication.

The parents took their children back after 10 months in our care. Honestly, I was ready for them to go. If I had known whet we were in for I would have had a very hard time making the decision to take them all in.

The girl took the 7th grade 3 times and was promoted because the school didn't want to keep her there any longer. She dropped out in the 8th grade under her mothers supervision. She will no doubt suffer for the mistakes of her mother and will probably be doomed to repeat her fate.

Heres an example of the flaw in your logic:1) All homosexuals are sodomists (true)2) All sodomists are homosexuals (false)See?I'm sorry I dont' see Trudy. I see what you're saying from what you wrote, understand that Homosexuals are sodomists because of what they do, although it's not all that they do.

This here was my statement, and I'll try to explain it.

Mason wrote:

Lots of children are abused and don't become serial killers. It's a psychology cop out. They're defective people, plain and simple.

1) All (or seemingly so) serial killers are abused children are abused as children. (true)

2) All abused children are serial killers. (false)

It seems from the research that it is in fact not a psychological cop-out. I gather from this research that one is not born into being a serial killer, but rather becoming a serial killer is either learned behaviour, or at least partialy derived from being abused as a child.

The homosexual analogy was simply to illustrate the flaw that while one thing may be true, the opposite may not be, as it is not in the case child abuse and serial killing.

I understand that not all sodomists are homosexual because heterosexual folks engage in anal sex.

Please understand that oral copulation is also defined as sodomy. Many heterosexuals take part in this one, which I was hoping would drive the point home even farther.

Also, beastiality is defined as sodomy.

When I was young I ate as much as a whole box of frosted flakes, so in a way that made me a cereal killer.

Serenity, that quote you're responding to wasn't mine!

Oops, sorry Trudy!


Oh gotta go now, been too long online and my five year old is still up, believe it or not! I'll follow up with the other responses later!

Hmm...I think a serial killer trait is genetic, and can be pushed on with childhood abuse. Not all abused children become serial killers, and I'm quite ready to assume that not all serial killers were abused. I think it's a combo of nature and nurture...and really hard to predict, but the warning signs help. Mutilation, apathy towards feelings/life, aggressive tendencies, violent acts without emotion, etc.

~Zoo

I read somewhere that ours is the only country that blames the parents when kids, that have had a good upbringing, turnout bad.

Really? I wonder why most people do that though?

It seems from the research that it is in fact not a psychological cop-out. I gather from this research that one is not born into being a serial killer, but rather becoming a serial killer is either learned behaviour, or at least partialy derived from being abused as a child.

Thx for making yourself more clear. I do believe I agree with Mason though because some people will use the knowlege of parental abuse and stuff like that as a cop out for what they do. There are those who do know what they are doing and they are aware of their actions and then they pretend they're sick when they get caught. This goes for anyone who commits a crime. Some of them do it deliberately!

When I was young I ate as much as a whole box of frosted flakes, so in a way that made me a cereal killer.

I guess the same can be said for most of us Elie! Pun well taken!!

Hmm...I think a serial killer trait is genetic, and can be pushed on with childhood abuse. Not all abused children become serial killers, and I'm quite ready to assume that not all serial killers were abused. I think it's a combo of nature and nurture...and really hard to predict, but the warning signs help. Mutilation, apathy towards feelings/life, aggressive tendencies, violent acts without emotion, etc.

Good points Shaun! I agree!

She will no doubt suffer for the mistakes of her mother and will probably be doomed to repeat her fate.

This is terrible John. Terrible that the mom would deny her daughter the help she obviously needs.

(I missed your response earlier - sorry!)

(Citizen)Zoologist03November 17, 2006 01:14:58

Hmm...I think a serial killer trait is genetic

Hey Shaun, I disagree. I've spoken to two psychiatrists and they both told me that it isn't a genetic trait, however having a mental illness does tend to run in families, which is part of being a serial killer.

You're right on target with the signs of "Mutilation, apathy towards feelings/life, aggressive tendencies, violent acts without emotion, etc."
They have no feelings of remorse, guilt, don't feel bad at all when they do something weird.