Yes, there certainly is a hell. That hell exists on earth and people who endure hell are usually from two distinct groups: Children and women who endure hell due to abuse and neglect (and many endure this hell daily). The other group consists of people who make/find life a living hell due to their bad choices, depression caused by life pressures and circumstances (depression makes hell look cosy), and those who make life difficult for themselves.

That's a very rough summation of hell but it exists on earth not in a cavern with fiery ovens or a horned satan. It exists in our lives.

FOREVERSERENITY,

Thank you for writing the article; it's good and jammed packed with thought provoking questions.

You ask:




As a baptized member of Jesus' religion, I was taught that there are four last things: Death, Judgment, Heaven or Hell. For me, it makes perfect sense to believe in the existence of God, of Heaven, of Satan and Hell.

The eternal nature of Hell is stressed in the New Testament. In the Gospel of St.Mark, Christ Himself warns us "it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched." In the Book of the Apocalypse, we read, "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshippers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

So, if one believe Christ, Hell isn't just a theoretical possibility. He warned us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hared, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." These are very sobering words and not from some movie actor or famous singer, wouldn't you agree?

What do Christ's words mean? They are unequivical in affirming the existence of Hell and its eternity. In St.Matt. 25:46, Christ speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment. Elsewhere, Scripture tells that immediately after death, our soul is judged and if found in the state of deadly sin, descend into Hell, where they suffer the punishments of "eternal fire"; the chief one of which is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

We are to judge one another as "good" or "bad" according to our words and actions as in behavior, that's all. That's what our laws are designed to do...and to take it further, if our laws are 'good', then they are harmonial with GOd's laws.

We are not to judge one another's heart or soul, that' up to God alone, the Supreme Judge.

How God will judge us is laid out in easy to understand terms in St.Matt. 25: 31-46. Well worth the read.

FOREVERSERENITY POSTS:


AERYCK POSTS:

Aeryck,

You say that Purgatory originates from Greek mythology and Egyptian ideas? Got any specifics, ie back-up on that? I say Catholic teaching on Purgatory is based on many passages from Scripture and on the uninterrupted Jewish tradition of prayer for the dead carried forward in the Church.

Really, Aeryck---Purgatory is not a doctrine of Christianity??? And if I read you correctly----you seem to be asserting that Roman Catholicism isn't of Christianity either! If so, whoa your horses! That's under the lid for another discussion.

One out of three ain't that bad though! You are correct that Catholicism defined Purgatory.

First of all, we know from Scripture, Apoc. 21:27, that nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in Heaven and while we may die with our deadly sins forgiven, there can still be venial sins upon our soul. Purgatory is that state of purification so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of Heaven, which is only experienced by those who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified.

True, the word Purgatory is found no where in Scripture and neither are the words Trinity and Incarnation, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Same thing with the existence of Purgatory. St. Paul tells that when we are judged each man's work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man's work fails the test? "he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire". 1Cor.3:15.

Why would anyone go to Purgatory? To be purified, for "nothing unclean shall enter Heaven. ANyone who has not been made completely freed of sin and its effects is to some extent "unclean".

Aeryck, just so you know, I do believe that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the Cross. But that doesn't settle the question of how His redemption is applied to us. Scripture tells us that it is applied to us over time through the process of sanctification through which the baptized Christian is made holy.


FOREVERSERENITY WRITES:

ADNAUSEUM ALSO:



This is how I would address your mention that Hell is on earth becasue of suffering and pain.

In continuing my comments to Aeryck, sanctification involves suffering, Romans 5:3-5, and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we can enter Heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ's applying to us the purifying redemption that He accomplished for us by His death on the Cross.

There is no contradiction in this. OUr suffering in sanctification does not take away from the Cross, rather, the Cross produces our santification which results in our suffering, becasue "for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness." Hebrews 12:11.

Anyway, Purgatory makes sense becasue there is a requirement that a soul dnot just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean before a man can enter into eternal life.

Purgatory makes no sense, because Jesus separated our sins from us as far as the east is from the west, our sins are cleansed by His blood. Sanctification is something that happens on Earth, the process of living more and more like Christ. Basically, what you're saying is that by works you go to Heaven but if your works aren't there you go to Purgatory then to heaven? Either works get you into heaven or they don't. This third option of having a little stop off to be burnt in fire before going to heaven doesn't make sense. The scriptures you bring forth are referring to life on Earth, not the afterlife. Discipline is only for sanctification as we live - there is no condemnation for our sins.

At least, that's what I understand of it.

No hell? then it's....


PARTY TIME!   

But is a faith based on Pascal's wager a genuine faith? I can't decide this, I'll have to leave it up to the individual.

I would do the same Gid, be undecided because it would be up to the individual and what they believe, it would be their choice.
Jythier:

I thought gambling was sinful?

Doc:

Depends upon who you are. I mean, Catholics-Bingo? No restrictions on us!

Doesn't most churches gamble anyway? Not just bingo night or some other form of raffle for charity purposes, but in the people they are trying to convert? Taking chances is quite a game!


AD:

Yes, there certainly is a hell. That hell exists on earth and people who endure hell are usually from two distinct groups: Children and women who endure hell due to abuse and neglect (and many endure this hell daily). The other group consists of people who make/find life a living hell due to their bad choices, depression caused by life pressures and circumstances (depression makes hell look cosy), and those who make life difficult for themselves.That's a very rough summation of hell but it exists on earth not in a cavern with fiery ovens or a horned satan. It exists in our lives.

Lula:

This is how I would address your mention that Hell is on earth becasue of suffering and pain. In continuing my comments to Aeryck, sanctification involves suffering, Romans 5:3-5, and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we can enter Heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ's applying to us the purifying redemption that He accomplished for us by His death on the Cross. There is no contradiction in this. OUr suffering in sanctification does not take away from the Cross, rather, the Cross produces our santification which results in our suffering, becasue "for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness." Hebrews 12:11.

Thanks AD! That's what I referred to as well. The possiblility that hell is not somewhere else, it is here. It is what each person experience in their lives when they go through trying times, pain, anything that drains the human spirit! Could this be what Jesus was referring to then, hell on earth because isn't this where Lucifer was thrown when he was thrown out of the Kingdom of God? Who decided that there was fire, and all that, who created this place of continuous pain, and torture? Wouldn't that be man? Man's religion? The many that there are out there, aren't they the ones who created these imagiry?

Sure all those quotes from the bibles and the scriptures that were written have their own interpretation. But could it be anything more simple than here on earth itself? Why else do we go through all that we do?

Thank you for writing the article; it's good and jammed packed with thought provoking questions.

Thx! It's a topic I've thought about from time to time.

Basically, what you're saying is that by works you go to Heaven but if your works aren't there you go to Purgatory then to heaven? Either works get you into heaven or they don't.

I think it's a bit of both Jythier, works and of course the requirement of being born again.

Hell yeah!



~Zoo

No hell? then it's....PARTY TIME!

! Bring on the beers!

Beers? Or deBeers?

deBeers?

De beers!!

Hell and heaven. What makes you think there's a difference? They're both exactly what you want, seen as it really is.

Well, if there is such a place, its where I'll be going. So I may as well pretend there is...

No hell? then it's.... PARTY TIME!

Ooo, looks like the double-up demon is on my case already...

JYthier posts:

Agree, the process of which we are made holy "sanctification" is an ongoing process.


Jythier posts:

Yes, becasue of CHrist's Cross, those who acknowledge (confess)their sin and truly repent, Christ will forgive them as far as the east is from the west. But Christians often die in venial sins upon their soul. The punishment of their sins are still unpaid and Catholics believe they must be purified of them in Purgatory before they enter Heaven.

And remember Revelation 21:27, "Nothing unclean shall enter it (Heaven), nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood..."

Take the person who has not completely expiated his sins, that is, not just had them forgiven, but made up for them, been punished for them, in this life, is to some extent "unclean". Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to qualify for heaven (which is to say his soul is spiritually alive), but that is not enough. He needs to be completely cleansed. Not "covered" and thereby declared clean, but actually be clean. It's not contrary to the Redemption by Christ to say we must be suffer (punished) of our sins, it is a matter of justice. We can and do suffer here, or hereafter, or in both places as St.Augustine wrote. For those who say that God doesn't demand expiation after having forgiven sins...think of King David. When David repented, God sent Nathan with a message to him. "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." 2Sam.12:14. Even after David's sin was forgiven, he had to undergo expiation. Can we expect less? Many may say yes, but Scripture sure doesn't teach that anywhere.. Having one's sins forgiven is not the same thing as having the punishment for them wiped out.

This same works in a similiar way in our natural life here on earth. If we hit a ball and break the window...we are forgiven, but we must makes amends...pay for or replace the window. The thief who steals and is caught is forgiven, yet, in justice--must must make amends and receive his punishment. When we are young and disobey our parents, we are forgiven and yet, in justice--punished for the wrong-doing.





Jythier, there is no condemnation for our sins according to who? Scriptures tell that nothing defiled can enter Heaven. Wisdom 7:25, Isaias 25:8, Hab. 1:13, and Rev. 21:27.

If I understand fundamentalism correctly, the main reason for your thinking Purgatory makes no sense is that it simply can't co-exist with fundamentalism's notion of salvation. For Fundamentalists, salvation comes by "accepting Christ as one's personal Savior". Aside from that one act of acceptance, no acts--meaning no good deeds and no sins---make any difference with respect to one's salvation. If one is "born-again" in fundamentalism's sense, salvation has already occurred, and nothing can keep one from heaven. If not 'born again", then one is damned. In this scenario, Purgatory would be superfluous since cleansing before entering Heaven would be unnecessary, on the notion that every soul is unclean and God ignores the uncleanliness by "covering" or "cloaking" the soul's sinfulness.

Purgatory makes sense only if there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered" or "cloaked", if its' sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then, for all the protestations that may be given, it's still a guilty soul--still "unclean". Someone who hasn't bathed in a month isn't cleansed by putting on clean clothes, as clean clothes don't remove the dirt. Likewise, "covering" or "cloaking" a soul will not purify it; it's dirty state is merely hidden from view. Catholic theology takes seriously that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this is is inferred that a less than clean soul, even if "covered", remains a dirty soul, and is not fit for heaven according to Rev. 21: 27. It needs to be cleansed or purified of its remaining imperfections, the purification comes in Purgatory.





Jythier posts:


Christ speaks of the forgiveness of sins in "the world to come". StMatt. 12:32 which refers to Purgatory according to St.Augustine and other Church Doctors.

LULA POSTS:

If you read the entire passage from v. 10, you'll find that St.Paul was speaking in the context of his metaphor of building and just as fire reveals the solidity of the construction, so God's judgment will show up the actions of each person, his "works" in their true light; they will become manifest. We understand that everyone will be rewarded according to his works and when speaking of retribution, St.Paul mentions fire and this is seen as a reference to the punishment meted out in Purgatory. Why Purgatory and not Hell? This loss, this penalty, can't refer to Hell since no one is saved there, and it can't mean Heaven, since there is no suffering (fire) there.

To Catholics, this means some must be in a third place...at leasttemporarily...that time would be between the Particular Judgment immediately upon a person's death and at the end of time when the General or Final Judgment occurs. It is between these two judgments that the soul expiates its sins: Christ said, "I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the very last penny." St.Luke 12:59.


The Catholic doctrine is most reasonable. It follows logically from the fact that many die with the burden of venial sins on their soul and conscience, or die with temporal punishment due to their forgiven sins still unpaid. The average Christian commits many a venial sin in his lifetime, for which he never craves pardon. The sinner of many years standing, who in God's mercy is pardoned on his deathbed, must in the hereafter satisfy to the last farthing (penny) his debt of temporal punishment.