Is this true of humanity?

I can't get over this one...

Published on August 12, 2005 By foreverserenity In Ethics

What do you think of this statement?

“Humans are good only because we are afraid of the consequences of being bad”.

My daughter asked me this last night. She said her class had this discussion yesterday. No, it wasn’t philosophy either, it was an English class.

We discussed this statement together last night and I kept going back to the same thing. That if we (humans) weren’t good (the majority of us) we would not be a humane society. We would not have rules and regulations that keep us in check.

She agreed with me, and then repeated the above statement. So I looked at her nonplussed and then we laughed.

I felt like an idiot really because I couldn’t come up with a reasonable argument against that statement!

The class was then given the following scenario, what if you went to a store or any place, which had a sign posted with the following statement: “Help yourself to anything you want. You don’t have to pay or worry about being arrested, just take it.” Would you take anything you wanted? And if you did, would you be worried about getting in trouble (even though the sign said you won’t) or would you do it and just don’t care?

A majority of her class were in agreement with the worrying part. And some went the other way. Then the teacher referred back to the first statement.

I know that if we all were to go around doing bad things all the time then our society on a whole would be in a lot of trouble because of lawlessness and so on. And there are some people who do “bad” acts and where are they? In jail, in prison….whatever the consequences were for the “bad” acts they did, they received it.

I still can’t get over the thought that we’re only good because we have to be though. Is that really so? Are the laws of our lands the only thing that does keep us in check? Are would we really be a society of waste, crime and lawlessness? And I guess if we were like that, does that mean there wouldn’t be God or spirituality in our lives, because isn’t it that which gives us our conscience?

Hmmm, this is quite a mouthful that I’m still thinking about. I would really like to hear what you think.

Comments (Page 1)

foreverserenity

on Aug 12, 2005

I still can't think of a more valid arguement against this statement. I still think that if we weren't the way we are now, we would not be a humane society. Is our laws the only reason why we are not bad?

Gideon MacLeish

on Aug 12, 2005

I disagree. This statement is the basis for the concept of "legislating morality", and is why we have laws against drug use, suicide, homosexual behaviour (in some states), and any number of other "consensual" crimes concerning consenting adults. If this statement were true, then laws effectively criminalizing such behaviour would have consequently reduced that behaviour, and no evidence has shown that to be true.

But it's still an interesting concept to use for discussion.

Shovelheat

on Aug 12, 2005

“Humans are good only because we are afraid of the consequences of being bad

Ultimately, I think this is true deep down on some level. To be really good, we do good unawares. Like Christ said, "Don't let your left hand know what your right is doing" or something like that. We are never as good as when we do something good without thinking about it.

Dr Guy

on Aug 12, 2005

Gid had an excellent response, and now I will give you mine.

I love doing a good deed even if I never see the person again, or get a thank you. Because it makes me feel good.

xtine

on Aug 12, 2005

I try to teach my children to be good not because they are afraid of the consequences of not being good (specifically religious consequences) but because it's the right thing to be. What is right? How do we know what's right? We know, we do...deep deep down, YOU know what's right and what's wrong. I believe this.

I also believe that humans can only survive as a species when they cooperate, and so being good then becomes a biological imperative.

stutefish

on Aug 12, 2005

Put it another way: we're good because we prefer the consequences of being good to the consequences of being bad.

We're good because good is better than bad, and we know it.

Note that we're only ever bad when we want some good thing (security, wealth, peace, power, love, etc.), and we believe the consequences of being bad to get it are outweighed by the good we're getting.

We're good because the desire for good is part of being human. We're bad because the willingness to do evil in a good cause is also part of being human. We make laws in an effort to tip the scales in favor of doing good, because we know about our conflict, and we know which side we want to win.

Damn straight we're good because we don't like the consequences of being bad. If we liked the consequences, we'd call it good, wouldn't we?

foreverserenity

on Aug 12, 2005

Ultimately I disagree too, that we are only good because we're afraid of the consequences. I get that part about the "legislative morality" of it. I'm sorry if I'm confused but lay it on me again will ya. So you're saying that our laws are not enough of a deterrent to prevent the consequences of being bad?

But it's still an interesting concept to use for discussion.

I thought it was too. She's pretty excited about this class because of the things they have covered so far and it isn't boring!

Ultimately, I think this is true deep down on some level.

I do see this to a point. I just can't agree that this is the only reason why we are good. Heavens to betsy! If so, we're in trouble.

To be really good, we do good unawares. Like Christ said, "Don't let your left hand know what your right is doing" or something like that. We are never as good as when we do something good without thinking about it.

That's a good quote and you have it right Shovel. But why can't we be considered as doing good because it comes naturally without us having to think about doing so?

We are good because we like the feeling that we get when we are good. Some defective humans may conform to the statement, but most (so I will call it human nature) like being good as it not only does good, it makes one feel good.
I love doing a good deed even if I never see the person again, or get a thank you. Because it makes me feel good.

I like to think so too Doc. I like to think that it is inherrent in human nature to be this way, even though to err is being human too.

Gideon MacLeish

on Aug 12, 2005

I'm sorry if I'm confused but lay it on me again will ya. So you're saying that our laws are not enough of a deterrent to prevent the consequences of being bad?

Yes, basically. I don't believe that laws against consensual crimes (I have ceased using the term "victimless crimes" after reading Peter McWilliams' book "Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do", a recommended read...but I digress) are a deterrent to improper behaviour. I believe our ridiculously high incarceration rate (considering the number of criminals incarcerated for such crimes) would bear out that assertion.

Demosthenes Locke

on Aug 12, 2005

I'll look to economics for my thoughts on this.

In most cases, it is in your own best interests to do good. This is because each person working together to achieve what is best for themself and best for the group as a whole results in the maximum total payoff. This is the Nash theory, obviously an important theme of "A Beautiful Mind".

In some cases, however the comparitive advantage is for you to do bad, since the downsides of it, irrespective of other people's behavior is less. However, since everyone is inherently self-interested, this means that everyone does bad, and everyone loses. The laws take the place of the decision in the prisoner's dilemma, so that maximum loss does not occur. It's a little tough to explain without diagrams, so here: Link

It's not that the consequences keep us from doing bad, it's that the rewards for doing good are greater.

With regard to laws, however, it is unfortunate, as Gideon says that a great many do not address this issue, but instead try to mandate specific behavior out of people.

foreverserenity

on Aug 12, 2005

try to teach my children to be good not because they are afraid of the consequences of not being good (specifically religious consequences)

I teach them to be good because of consequences too...the punishment for the bad deed they did.

We know, we do...deep deep down, YOU know what's right and what's wrong. I believe this.

As do I xtine, as do I. This is what I firmly believe too.

also believe that humans can only survive as a species when they cooperate, and so being good then becomes a biological imperative.

This so brought me to think of a great Sci Fi movie! None in particular, just any of those intriguing ones!

Put it another way: we're good because we prefer the consequences of being good to the consequences of being bad. We're good because good is better than bad, and we know it.

I see your point and it's a valid one too.

Note that we're only ever bad when we want some good thing (security, wealth, peace, power, love, etc.), and we believe the consequences of being bad to get it are outweighed by the good we're getting.

So far with some of the crimes done in society by some people, this is true too.

We're good because the desire for good is part of being human. We're bad because the willingness to do evil in a good cause is also part of being human. We make laws in an effort to tip the scales in favor of doing good, because we know about our conflict, and we know which side we want to win.

Yep! We always root for the good guy! That being said, in what way can doing evil or bad be good? What good cause would that benefit?

I'm sorry if I'm confused but lay it on me again will ya. So you're saying that our laws are not enough of a deterrent to prevent the consequences of being bad? Yes, basically. I don't believe that laws against consensual crimes (I have ceased using the term "victimless crimes" after reading Peter McWilliams' book "Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do", a recommended read...but I digress) are a deterrent to improper behaviour. I believe our ridiculously high incarceration rate (considering the number of criminals incarcerated for such crimes) would bear out that assertion.

A valid point Gid. I have to add that book to my "to be read" list. Thanks for recommending it!

Dr Guy

on Aug 12, 2005

like to think so too Doc. I like to think that it is inherrent in human nature to be this way, even though to err is being human too.

That is the truth! But then dont we feel bad when we err? Some try to cover it up. I think that is just immaturity. I announce it and basically say "I am passed it!". Then I dont worry about anyone throwing it in my face again, as I have already accepted my humanity, but acknowledged it and moved on.

I just love the feeling of doing good. And even tho (biblically) we are not suppose to get any reward for doing good, I get a reward evertime I do. Not money, just in the feeling.

Dr Guy

on Aug 12, 2005

Reply By: Demosthenes Locke

Ok, Data! That was a good response too!

Demosthenes Locke

on Aug 12, 2005

Thanks!! I think...

That's the trouble with trying to speak logically when your mind is a jumble of paradoxes.

Ziggystyles

on Aug 12, 2005

I guess it depends on what one's definition of "good" is. A child molester might not know any different and consider molestation "good". S/he feels good. S/he has a good time. S/he doesn't suffer any negative consequences from the encounter. How could it be bad?

Humans are social creatures. Most of us don't do well without some sort of meaningful contact with others. Maybe our "desire" to be "good" comes from our innate need for other people. But that goes back to the consequences of being bad. If I was "bad" I wouldn't be socialized.

Ugh...talk about a carousel question. Interesting though...

Dr Guy

on Aug 12, 2005

That's the trouble with trying to speak logically when your mind is a jumble of paradoxes.

You did well.

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