I agree. That's what I said. God is NOT accepting of sin. Since he labels homosexuality a sin and an abomination, we are to go against it. Not have tolerance FOR it. We should not legislate what God abhors. Don't you agree AD?



agree, but that's NOT what we are discussing are we? We are discussing homosexualty.



so what plank are you referring to? Read the rest of that scripture...it says....to pull the plank out and then you shall see more clearly to cast out the splinter doesn't it? It doesn't say NOT to judge. It says to judge rightly. Many times Jesus spoke of judging rightly....without malice or hypocricy. I have neither. I have no malice here nor am I engaging in immoral acts that would render me unqualified to speak out against this sin. So again AD what are you referring to here?



no, We are to obey the laws of the land. If the laws recognize your marriage as valid (and they do) we should have no criticisms toward you in this regard. In fact, I've never heard a Christian say one is less married because they were married on the beach instead of in the church. It's all a matter of preference. The only command about marriage in scripture is that we are equally yoked and that we commit to each other for life. What God has joined together via civil union or church wedding no man should break apart.

In fact I was married by a JP over 26 years ago. I was NOT married in the church. It doesn't make our union less of a union in God's eyes.

AD posts:

Sure.

Moral judgments are essential and the Holy Bible is filled with them.

It is clearly incumbent upon us to judge. There is a clear distinction between judging an action, and the motives behind such actions. We can clearly see the act, but it is difficult to understand what motivated it. In other words, we can judge the act, but not the soul, for it is in the soul that motives lie---the latter is for God to judge.


1Cor 5: 1-13---------St.Paul lays down some seemingly harsh measures for dealing with those who are sinning. He tells them not to associate with or shun those who are immoral, covetous, an idolater, an abusive person, a drunkard or a thief.

"But now I have written to you, not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother, be a fornicator, or covetous, or a server of idols, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner: with such a one , not so much as to eat. For what have I to do to judge them that are without? Do not you judge them that are within? For them that are without, God will judge. Put away the evil one from yourselves."

Christ made a similiar statement about the recalcitrant sinner in St.Matt. 18. If these unrepentant people are left with no one to chastise them they could lead others into sin or promote an unhealthy tolerance for evil conduct.

See 1 Cor. 6 for what St.Paul means by an immoral person, Do not deceive yourselves: no fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, theives, misers, drunkards, slanderers or robbers will inherit God's Kingdom. Gal. 5 he condemns lewd conduct, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, orgies, etc. warning those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.



6:1-5--------Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to be judged before the unjust , and not before the saints? Know you not that the Saints shall judge this world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know you not that we shall judge angels? how much more things of this world? If therefore you have judgments of things pertaining to this world, set them to judge, who are the most despised in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so that there is none among you any one wise man that is able to judge between his brethren?

2St.John 10-11-------If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house nor say to him, God speed you. For he that saith unto him, God speed you, communicateth with his wicked works.

Leviticus 19:15------Thou shalt not do that which is unjust, nor judge unjustly. Shew neither partiality to the weak nor deference to the mighty. But judge thy neighbor according to justice.

19:17-------Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart, but reprove him openly, lest thou incur sin through him.

St.Luke 12:57-59-----And why even of yourselves, do you not judge that which is just? And when thou goest with thy adversary to the prince, whilst thou art in the way, endeavor to be delivered from him: lest perhaps he draw thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the exacter, and the exacter cast thee into prison. I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence, until thou pay the very last mite.

St.John 7:24 in which we learn there is no doubt that we are to judge one another's words, actions and deeds with the provision we that we judging rightly, or with justice or justly.

The general guiding principle is found in St.Matt 7:12 which is true even for even those who don't believe in God or the non-religious "whatever you wish men should do to you, you also do to them."

With regard to homosexuality, we often hear "Don't be judgmental", but this is nonsense becasue the act is clearly to be condemned. We can and must judge the act saying it is sinful and against God's law. We can and must judge justly when it comes to homosexuality especially when taking steps to protect our children from the influence of such individuals.

How do you know that? If marriage is such an inherently religious institution then how can a union formed by a JP in a non-religious ceremony be seen in any way as valid? Is it not missing an inherent part of what makes a marriage in fact a marriage?

God doesn't lay out particulars. In fact weren't Adam and Eve married in a garden? How were their children married? There were NO churches back then. Remember church is a fairly new institution instituted by Christ only 2,000 years ago.

Yes, God wants to be included in the marriage but he doesn't lay out exactly how the ceremony is to be performed. Outside of being asked to be invited I don't think he cares.

In fact when it came to the Passover he even mentions this...he only cared that three elements were included in however they wanted to organize their ceremony. The same with the Last Supper. We can organize it however we wish but two elements must be present...the bread and the fruit of the vine. He never says how often even. Some do it monthly, some daily, some yearly. It's the same with the ceremony. Nowhere in scripture does it say we have to have a priest or pastor perform this ceremony.

 

I have not and am not questioning the sacredness of marriage. You seem to constantly turn this conversation into that!  I have said time and again, that marriage is sacred, I do consider it to be so!  I question why should it matter to all and sundry who are against Gay people getting married, why should it bother them?  The only thing I've heard is because it makes marriage unsacred; it's against God; it's against my beliefs and/or principles.  All of those opinions that are valid, and yet, what I would consider are opinions of many who do not agree with the existence of homosexuals because they are 'unnatural', and not of the norm of our heteorosexual society!  What I question and opine and can't see the logic in, is that these people who object to Gay  people, if thier rights were being trampled on, in just the same way that Gay rights is being trampled on, were they to lose their rights to worship or do anything that they WANT to do, would be just as upset and put up a loud cry in the streets to have their rights and voices to be heard and their rights available to them as citizens of this great country!

 

Telling me all that you have said, quoting from the scriptures, still has not answered my questions as to why should it matter to you?  If two people getting married can make what you firmly believe and hold dear be useless and not sacred, then I can honestly say that perhaps you need to look within to see why this would be.

 

 

Listen sister, I don't know which God you worship, but the one that I do, loves all, knows all, and sees all.  It is for HIM to judge me and everyone else, not you, not me and certainly not the courts, when the end of times are here.  However, as the courts have to be the one to rule because of the laws that we must live by according to citizens of this land, they realise that they were wrong, and they are correcting that situation! 

 

You want to high five, let us high five in the name of Jesus that he is a forgiving and loving God who loves and accepts everyone, especially us lowly humans who can't seem to live up to his expectations.  That's why he send his son, his only son to fight for us, that's why he is God.  He shows compassion and he teaches us to forgive and turn the other cheek.  As you know, so many of us can't seem to do this very thing!  Why am I going to condemn and shun the very people who he gives life to just because they are different from me?  I say let them have their happy gay union! 

and I actually agree with you FS to a certain point. It's not about shunning or condemning anyone tho. It's about not legislating sin.

I also say, let them do whatever it is they want...just don't force our children to be taught it's equal to what God created in the first place. But if I'm offered a choice to say yea or nay...I'm voting against because it's not good for our society and because I should vote my conscience.

If the people of our country want to allow them to marry, let them. But let the people vote fairly. When I lived in Maine, the homosexual rights group kept bringing up homosexual rights, over a period of years, for a vote and they were nasty about it. We, as a very liberal state, voted it down repeatedly something like three times. Finally our very liberal governor tried a backdoor approach bringing it to the legislature without a vote forcing the Christian base to rush around obtaining signatures at the midnight hour forcing it yet one more time to vote. Finally they got their way by basically wearing the people down.

Don't force the pastors that believe otherwise to marry them. We're not trying to force them into being Christians neither should they force a Pastor or a Christian in general to be applauding or celebrating with them in this. We are taught to always obey the laws of the land unless it contradicts what God has laid down clearly in scripture and this is a clear one. Homosexuality is a sin. Murder is a sin. Lying is a sin. We should never be ok with sin and so as Christians we are not to take part in these things. We are NOT ok with our children being taught this is ok and that's where the force is coming in to play. We are being forced to swallow this hook, line and sinker. Textbooks are being changed to allow homosexual terminolgy in the classroom starting with elementary schools. This is not ok.

Nope, I do not agree. The law of Homosexuality was given to children of Israel NOT the world (Lev 18 & 20). This set of scriptures take place AFTER the agreement to the covenant on Mount Sinai. Again I stand on the notion that you are imposing your Book of Morals upon those who have not agreed upon a similar covenant.



Hmm, I guess I didn't know you were sinless.

Really? Ok, let's go with that.

Who was Paul talking to then in Romans 1 and 1 Cor 6 when he AGAIN brought this up? Both times it was listed as an abomination.



no, I never said I was. That's not what that scripture is referring to. It's not saying you are to be sinless before you show another their error. It's saying...make sure you're not guilty of doing the same thing first. Examine your own life first. Are you filled with hypocricy or malice when you judge another?

When Priscilla pulled Appollos aside, she had to make a judgment call. She showed him where he was wrong and he was better for it. Peter made a judgment call against Simon and called him out on it. John the Baptist called Herod out for sleeping with his brother's wife. Were they all guilty as I am? We are to call sin sin or error error. We are not to engage in or support anything that contradicts God's word to us. We also are called to speak out. You should know this AD. Spend some time in Jeremiah or Jonah, or Ezekiel and you will see this.

Lula gave quite a few examples above that are telling us we are to make these judgments when it comes to sin. We are to examine everything in light of scrpture and judge if it's right according to what God's laws have to say.

This passage of scripture deals WITHIN the believing body NOT the WORLD.

"9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES." (1 Cor 5:9-13)

Those who are sinning within the believing community.




Lula, not a single one of these verses you quoted suggest that Bible Believers are the World's Moral Police.



You say this and then follow up with...



Wasn't it you that was just complaining about homeschooling your senior child because of the influence on the schools? Why? Because they were teaching against YOUR doctrines. Seems to me that it is okay for you to impose your Bible/Catholic agenda on those who have not made the same commitment of the Bible but when outsiders have the upper hand you complain.

Do you not see the hypocrisy?

You took the steps to protect your child by home schooling the rest of the year. I still see no place for judging others who do not believe the same as you.

Doc,

I really do think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  The way I see it, marriage is a social institution.  You see it differently.  Thats fine.

Lula,

You post tracts out of the Old Testament, which you believe as your religion dictates.  Therefore, in your eyes, the ceremony is religious.  Again, this is fine, if you are a Christian and believe in the bible.  I, however, don't, so these tracts have absolutely no relevance to my personal beliefs. 

This again is only relevant if you are Christian and believe in the teachings of the bible.  As I stated above, I don't have the same beliefs as you.  By the way, I don't need a bible lesson from you either.  It gets flaming tiring.

Romans 1:7 -to all who are beloved of God in Rome. These are the believers in G-D similar to those who verbally made the covenant of faith at Mount Sinai.

Yes, I agree KFC, the Bible does say it's an abomination. This letter again was written to the BELIEVERS not to everyone there in Corinth.



The error of who? Error of a brother (ie another believer in the Bible).

Maso, thank you for re-affirming my point (if I may say so).

Upon further perusal of the Internet, I found a website that has a discussion going on much like this one.  It quotes and explains what is written in the bible because of a similar question asked, "what does the bible say about Gay".  It gives what the Anti and Pro views would be about what the bible says.  The comments at the end, people's views are just as conflicted as ours, depending on what each individual believes.  It is an interesting read.

I can't copy and paste with mozilla, didn't set it up to do that yet, a pain, so I'll just write in the website here,  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3205727.stm

 

I guess two readers comments stood out to me.  Phumlani of South Africa and Wyatt Borderwyk of US.  Phumlani says that we each behave the way we do because of what the bible says, and that what the bible says is open for (or to) interpretation(s), depending on what each of us want and what we believe, our circumstances dictates (the end results of what we do or believe).

 

Wyatt said that "this argument is as touch as evolution".  So true!  He also said there is no wrong or right answer, we can only 'interpret' (again that word) it as best we can and hope that our interpretation is the right one!  We all want it to be!   I firmly believe that because the bible has been interpreted by man, re-written to suit what ever the cause is, the truth is not fully within, not at all times.  It does reassure me when I read it, and comforts me.  But I can't accept everything as it states literally, not all the time.  The church from the beginning, or should I say, from its beginning have done and written things to suit itself and what its beliefs are, and what they espect their followers to do, and the laws to obey, not so much God's law, but their laws.  They write the bible, or re-write the bible to suit themselves, so 60 percent of it is true, the rest, made up of man-made rules! That's my views and will not be suitable or acceptable to others I'm sure! 

 

I'm glad it's not KFC, but somehow, it is because of the belief systems and the policies already in place.

 

Absolutely, I agree you or your children should not be force-fed anything you don't want.  Vote what you believe, vote your concience. 

 

 

Oh I think there are more than enough people, pastors, or others who would willingly and gladly marry them without being forced to do so.

I think one of the reason why the protest, the gay protest is so loud and in all of our faces is because they have been denied the right for so long!  They wear us down because whatelse ccan they do if not be in our faces because some of us don't, cannot accept them for who they are.  They just want to live, work, play, buy their houses, have their businesses without fear of reprisals from the hate-mongers, and fearsome ones who make their lives miserable!  Why do you think they are all over the courts, because they have to ask permission to love and live and it is worse than being in jail, it is worse than some pet animals are allowed to live or treated.  I can't say I blame them! [I might seem extreme in what I say, but you get the point I'm trying to make here?]

 

 

AD,

My pleasure and I have to say I admire your persistence with this.  But really, I think it is akin to beating one's head against a brick wall (for both sides of the discussion) as there are obviously fundamental differences in the way we think.  All the same, it is more cookies for Serenity and I would far rather her get them than some others.

 

Heaven forbid anyone ever think that God does not judge and that the only ones who do are people with their myopic vision of a world based on righteousness.

What if I believe that there is no sin, that the only one I have to answer to is my own Consciousness and that there is no "right" or "wrong" but only different experiences which allow different reactions according to what I do or do not do.

No matter what people or society may think of me and people of the same sexual persuasion as me, I will only love to the best of my ability and what gender I choose to have as my partner is of my own business and of noone elses. For me it is more of a connection of the heart rather than of the genitalia. I have no need to procreate sexually and therefore focus my love when in a relationship more on building a stable relationship and connection.