When Gays get Married, Who does it Really Bother?

Published on May 17, 2008 By foreverserenity In Blogging

For some people, marriage between two people of the same sex insults their sensibilities. (and that is putting it mildly!) It is religiously wrong, because they have some document that proves that it is wrong. It trumps their sense of right and wrong. All the implications that can be thought of for why this should not be, they will find it!

There are so many boxes that have been created in our lives. Everything we do and all that we represent fits in those boxes. You can't be a cirle and fit in a square box, that doesn't work. You're going against the grain, against all that is natural, known and dare I say holy? In essense homosexuals do not fit the roles or the boxes that we have created in this life! Not in our lifetime, not in our backyards!

Am I being immoral because I have no objections to people of the same sex marrying each other? Some people do think that, I have no doubt about that. Same sex marriage is not an abomination of marriage in general, or against God as some like to quote. Same sex marriage does not make my own heterosexual marriage unimportant or less than what it is. What matters fundamentally is the right of each individual to choose the path that is their God-given right to do.

Although the legal papers now says that these people have the right to marry whomever they choose, they still do not have the legal rights, all the rights that a man and a woman in a marriage do. They won't be able to file taxes together, they won't be able to get all the benefits that a man and a woman in a marriage can from the government, if they need it, because although the law says they are allowed to marry, they are still not equal or legal in every aspects of their lives.

The article I have linked above, written by John Cloud, defines and clarify some of the things the California rulings does or does not do with the confusion to many about Gay marriage.

Marriage between homosexuals doesn't take away our rights as heterosexual individuals just because two men or two women seek to marry each other, but those who object gladly seek to take away what is a fundamental right of each person, their freedom!

Comments (Page 13)

181

Dr Guy

on May 28, 2008

I really do think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The way I see it, marriage is a social institution. You see it differently. Thats fine.

That is fine with me. I only really care how the govrnment intercedes in it, and unfortunately I have not seen any good come from that side of the equation when they decide to "help" people.

182

Gideon MacLeish

on May 28, 2008

What if I believe that there is no sin, that the only one I have to answer to is my own Consciousness and that there is no "right" or "wrong" but only different experiences which allow different reactions according to what I do or do not do.

What if I believe gravity does not apply and jump off a cliff? The consequences of being wrong are dire.

I'll leave it to you to hold your beliefs, Phoenixboi, because you're a big boy and entitled to that. But assuming for a second that you are wrong, the sincerest belief in the world will not change the facts.

Now, THAT being said, to the original question. The reason I believe the government should be morally neutral is because we are NOT a theocracy, and the government's responsibility should be to protect the rights of everyone involved. The only way, in my opinion, the government can TRULY respect the rights of those involved in this instance is to remain morally neutral.

183

lulapilgrim

on May 28, 2008

FOREVERSERENITY POSTS #172

My God is a loving, accepting being...loving and accepting no matter what your sexual preference is

Lula posts: quoting KFC:

....While God is a loving God he is NOT accepting of sin.

FOREVERSERENITY POSTS:

Listen sister, I don't know which God you worship, but the one that I do, loves all, knows all, and sees all.

You want to high five, let us high five in the name of Jesus that he is a forgiving and loving God who loves and accepts everyone, ........ He shows compassion and he teaches us to forgive and turn the other cheek.

Let us not forget that Almighty God, the same one you describe above, was not accepting of homosexuality, most notably at Sodom and Gomorrah. The God-inspired words of St.Paul condemned acts of homosexuality telling us that those who practice unnatural vice will not enter Heaven. Don't you get it? God warned that Heaven would not be "inclusive" of them and other sinners as well. While some voices speak beguilingly that homosexuality is just diverse strokes for different folks, this is God's booming voice telling us that cloaking sin with respectability and acceptability isn't the way to go.

Instead of turning the other cheek, let us extend to our neighbor true compassion which is the fruit of love of God and love of neighbor for the love of God, and far from favoring sin and vice, seeks to help the unhappy sinner to abandon his sorry state.

God is All Powerful, Forgiving, Merciful and Compassionate and homosexuals through Jesus Christ can change their aberrational behavior.

184

foreverserenity

on May 28, 2008

was not accepting of homosexuality, most notably at Sodom and Gomorrah. The God-inspired words of St.Paul condemned acts of homosexuality telling us that those who practice unnatural vice will not enter Heaven.

Sodom and Gomorrah didn't get destroyed because of homosexuality, it got destroyed because of all the sinful acts, including fornication, adultery, idol worshipping, drinking was probably involved too, not just because there were homosexual acts going on. Blaming it on the homosexuals is another fear that Christianity deemed necessary to do. How convenient!

Don't you get it? God warned that Heaven would not be "inclusive" of them and other sinners as well.

Heaven will not have sinners, that's correct! That includes all sinners, not just homosexuals! There might just be that one homosexual out there who will get into heaven more than you or I would, don't be surprise at that! What does Jesus say, "Go and sin no more" When he says that to whomever he chooses, don't you think that is compassion?

Why is it that heterosexuals are able to sin, do all the deeds that they do and then weep and pray and ask for forgiveness and be forgiven by their pastors, or priests or whomever, Then they do it again, and the "wash, rince, repeat" cycles go on and on and on and on.....is this not basically the same as sinning every day then? Do they deserve to be forgiven and in heaven? So how is that different and why wouldn't God be compassioneth and why would that behavior not be consider aberrational?

185

lulapilgrim

on May 28, 2008

Upon further perusal of the Internet, I found a website that has a discussion going on much like this one. It quotes and explains what is written in the bible because of a similar question asked, "what does the bible say about Gay". It gives what the Anti and Pro views would be about what the bible says. The comments at the end, people's views are just as conflicted as ours, depending on what each individual believes. It is an interesting read.

You're on to something here.

Put in broader terms, there is a culture war that is being waged and the confliction is between the powerful forces of good and evil. The battle ground is over sexual morality and specifically whose morality do we want to shape our society and it's laws by which we're governed.

Is it the sexual morality found in Sacred Scripture or the sexually revolutionized morality that crept in over the last 40 + years?

186

Adventure-Dude

on May 28, 2008

My pleasure and I have to say I admire your persistence with this. But really, I think it is akin to beating one's head against a brick wall (for both sides of the discussion) as there are obviously fundamental differences in the way we think. All the same, it is more cookies for Serenity and I would far rather her get them than some others.

Maso, I think it boils down to this. Many Christians agree that the Bible is for everyone but don't realize the inverse is not true. Not everyone is for the Bible.

While I, myself, may not agree with the lifestyle of homosexuality I realize that it is my experiences in life and my belief that brings me to this conclusion. I think it is completely intellectually disrespectful to tell another adult that their lifestyle should be more like mine. To do so is to say that my experiences in life and beliefs are superior than theirs (which yields the fruit of arrogance out of ignorance).

187

lulapilgrim

on May 28, 2008

Sodom and Gomorrah didn't get destroyed because of homosexuality,

Really? so where does the word "sodomy" come from?

it got destroyed because of all the sinful acts, including fornication, adultery, idol worshipping, drinking was probably involved too,

Yes, it's safe to say there must have been these other sinful acts as well.

188

Gideon MacLeish

on May 28, 2008

Really? so where does the word "sodomy" come from?

From the long held notion that that was the reason for Sodom's destruction.

To clarify FS's statement, I'll give you the Scripture reference that supports it: Ezekial 16:49.

While the aforementioned verse does state that the reasons for Sodom's destruction were pride and excess of food while the poor and needy suffered outside her door, it does not, nor does any other verse in Scripture, CONDONE homosexuality. But FS is 100% correct when she said the reasons for Sodom's destruction were not homosexuality.

189

lulapilgrim

on May 28, 2008

I think it is completely intellectually disrespectful to tell another adult that their lifestyle should be more like mine.

To do so is to say that my experiences in life and beliefs are superior than theirs (which yields the fruit of arrogance out of ignorance).

C'mon! You're not serious?

Take your friend who smokes (whatever?) like a chimney...is it disrespectful or loving to tell him it's dangerous for his health...or illegal?...or that he can't smoke inside your house?

How about a person who uses illegal drugs or is a drug dealer? Or the alcoholic? Is it intellectually disrespectful or loving to tell them they should be doing something better with their life?

190

Adventure-Dude

on May 28, 2008

Put in broader terms, there is a culture war that is being waged and the confliction is between the powerful forces of good and evil. The battle ground is over sexual morality and specifically whose morality do we want to shape our society and it's laws by which we're governed.

Is it the sexual morality found in Sacred Scripture or the sexually revolutionized morality that crept in over the last 40 + years?

Lula, I'm sorry but legislation will NEVER dictate moral behavior. Legislation isn't a solution nor even remotely an answer.

Imposing a moral code on someone isn't an answer either.

If you are looking for an answer it begins in your community. I can't even count the number of churches that have immorality within. Many of which come from Pastors or Priests!

When I was in high school we had the Youth Pastor molesting the Pastor's daughter IN THE CHURCH. The even more sad issue with this is that the congregation later stated that this happened to the Pastor's daughter because SHE didn't have enough faith.

Lula, I use this disturbing example because society isn't the problem but rather the product (end results). The hypocrisy found in churches (maybe not in yours)today should be appalling.

It's kind of an issue of before you tell me how to run my house, how about you get your house in order first (the you being in general and not pertaining to Lula). Then and only then if I 'WANT' to have that kind of order in my life I will ask you how you did it or how you live.

In my congregation where I go. I find it quite revealing when I hear comments about how well behaved the kids are (no they are not mine). Several young parents that visit often come to those parents (of well behaved kids) asking how they did it.

Lula, I'm in no way directing this towards you or to anyone on this thread. While I'm sure I sound like a wishy washy believer to you hopefully this helps you to understand where I am coming from.

The bottom line is the destruction of the home family (which took place WAY before this so called Gay issue) is more likely to contain the problem and the solution to your POV.

191

Adventure-Dude

on May 28, 2008

Lula, here's what you seem to continue to miss. Telling them it is dangerous is DIFFERENT than FORCING them to do something through legislation. This isn't about telling Gays that it is a 'dangerous' lifestyle but about legislation against them. Just look at the Prohibition period of the US. This is an issue about saying they can't do something because it goes against your moral standard.

Now let's not confuse the issue here. I understand what you are trying to say but before this becomes a slippery road there is a significant difference between drugs and Gays. Drugs become an issue of danger to the public. I don't have to worry about if the oncoming car has a Gay driver now do I?

192

lulapilgrim

on May 28, 2008

GIDEON POSTS:

But FS is 100% correct when she said the reasons for Sodom's destruction were not homosexuality.

What was the crime that caused God to annihiliate Sodom and Gomorrah? Scripture is quite clear.

Check out Gen. 18:20....God said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin (singular) is so grave..." What is the sin which "cried out" for punishment?

Check out Gen. 19...it recounts the story of how Abraham's nephew, Lot, entertained two angels at his home in Sodom. Word got around that Lot had some visiting men in his home, and "the townsmen of Sodom, both young and old, gathered outside his home, clamoring for the two visitors to be turned over so that they could be homosexually raped: "Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we might know them. Lot went out to them and shut the door after him and said: Do not so, I beseech you, my brethren do not commit this evil.

Notice what's going on here. The townsmen cried out to Lot they wanted to have sexual intimacies with them and Lot in the next verses following the ones I quoted above attempts
to quell the mob by offering them his two virgin daughters suspecting that becasue these men were homosexuals they would refuse. The entire account revolves around one single sin: homosexuality.

Yes, while it's true that some of the later prophets, including Ezekiel, pointed out other sins, it's clear that the sin that provoked God's wrath was homosexuality. God didn't mete out complete destruction of two cities becasue of people were prideful and weren't charitable to the poor and needy.

St.Jude 1:7-8 "As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the neighboring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire. In like manner, these men also defile the flesh, and despise dominion, and blaspheme majesty."

193

Gideon MacLeish

on May 28, 2008

OK, so to set the record straight, the Bible lied? Because either Sodom was destroyed for the reasons Ezekial stated, or the Bible is false and every word in it is suspect.

I get a little frustrated when Christians tell me I'm wrong when I'm quoting directly from the Bible.

Check out Gen. 19...it recounts the story of how Abraham's nephew, Lot, entertained two angels at his home in Sodom. Word got around that Lot had some visiting men in his home, and "the townsmen of Sodom, both young and old, gathered outside his home, clamoring for the two visitors to be turned over so that they could be homosexually raped: "Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we might know them. Lot went out to them and shut the door after him and said: Do not so, I beseech you, my brethren do not commit this evil.

Don't you think the fact that they tried to RAPE these angels had a little to do with God being ticked, Lula? I do believe, for the record, that homosexuality was one of the SYMPTOMS of Sodom's sin, but to state that it was the express reason Sodom was destroyed goes against what the Bible says elsewhere.

The verse in Ezekial, for the record, also refers to it as "sin" in the singular.

194

lulapilgrim

on May 28, 2008

Lula, I'm sorry but legislation will NEVER dictate moral behavior. Legislation isn't a solution nor even remotely an answer.

AD,

You fail to recognize the fact that law is fundamentally about imposing somebody's views of somebody else. Actually, it's the very nature of law to impose particular views...that's what our laws do...and people don't like to have other's moral views imposed upon them.

Car thieves don't want laws prohibiting stealing..same of drug dealers...

That's what our legislatures do...they craft laws that will impose someone's morality on somebody who doesn't want their morality legislated.

Imposing a moral code on someone isn't an answer either.

We live in a nation of laws. We can't get around it.

The question is, whatever is going to be legislated by the force of law (in this discussion homosexual 'marriage'), is it reasonable, just and meant for the common good of all society or is the law meant for a few special interest groups to force acceptance of homosexuality and punish those who disagree by lawsuits, fines, and most of all, loss of our freedom of conscience, speech, and association?

195

KFC Kickin For Christ

on May 28, 2008

I agree with Gid Lula. Sodom was a terrible wicked sinful city and homosexuality was just one by product of their wickedness. When you open the door to immorality everything creeps in. Homosexuality is usually the last straw before destruction and just a symptom of the real sin which is rebellion against God. All sin is rebellion against God.

We are going the same route. Homosexuality will be the last straw and God will give us over to it. We will no longer be the blessed nation we started out to be and I believe if you read the newspaper you can see that quite clearly and it's going to get worse.

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