Tithing is not a non-Christian thing at all.  I don't expect a non-Christian to understand it, because it comes from a fundamental belief that everything you have belongs to God, and that he asks for just 10% to go to the church (local storehouse), and that if we are faithful in that He will give back to us.  Where you treasure is, there your heart will be also.

If it's not in your heart to give, don't give.  If you would do so grudgingly, keep your money.  But don't give your money out to other people and call it a 'tithe', or think it replaces a 'tithe'.  It doesn't.  It's giving, and that's good, but it's not tithing.

I hate that.  One should check out someone's story, but one shouldn't assume people are scammers.  Caution in giving but not total aversion to giving.  Especially when it's a member of the church, but even when it's a person off the street.

Is there a better use of any of your faculties than obeying God?

Since when are elders or church leadership God?

I am actually a christian, but thanks for assuming that I'm not.  This is what I meant when I say it is a way for people to look down their noses at others.  You assume that because I do not agree with the practice of tithing that I must not be Christian -- that is awfully judgemental. 

Maybe you have no idea just how condescending you sound -- it is certainly in my heart to give -- just not 10% of my salary to the church if it meant that I couldnt' afford to take care of my own basic necessities and those of my family.  I think that you get into very dangerous territory when you question what is in someone elses heart. 

All I keep hearing from you is that God won't provide for you, and you know that's not true.  We need to hold onto God's promises, not money.

I apologize, and you're right - a disagreement on doctrine doesn't make one not a Christian.  Neither does anything else except not believing in Jesus and accepting his sacrifice for us, right?

I meant to say, 'if it is not in your heart to tithe' instead of 'give'.  And I wasn't questioning your heart.  I've never seen you give or tithe, or not give or tithe.  Even if I saw you do one or the other, I wouldn't question what was in your heart, because God knows what's going on.  That's his job.  I'm just saying that if anyone feels they should not tithe for whatever reason, or would give grudgingly out of guilt, don't do it.  It's not supposed to feel bad to give.

They didn't tell me to tithe.  They told me why tithing is important.  God says that everything you have is His, but to give 10% to the local storehouse (church) as a representation of that whole, leaving us with stewardship of the other 90%.  So tithing, to me, is obeying God by giving to the church.

that's the thing tho....the $800 in this case is spread out over a year correct?  So that would be $66.67 a month or $2.22 a day I give to God.  I get to keep $666.67 a month (interesting numbers here eh?) or $19.68 a day  ...like I said...not much diff between being able and unable.   God more than makes up the slack.  It's the only place in scripture where he tells us to test him. 

That's not much to give to God a day.  I know for a fact my reward is much greater, physically and spiritually when I give to Him first.   I could be dead tomorrow for all I know.  I've never seen a U-Haul hitched to a hearst have you?  

sometimes.  You laugh but I've seen this done.  Many testimonies out there with exact amounts showing up in various ways to take care of bills, rent etc. 

I remember twice I gave a $100 dollar donation to some cause that I thought was very important.  It was more than I really wanted to give  at the time but thought it was worthwhile enough to do so.  Both times I received exactly a $100 worth of free oil within a week or so after I gave.  Both times I won the oil in a road race.  Got my attention.  I was the only one who won this oil.  So it wasn't like there were others. 

I just want to clarify -- you aren't giving the money to God.  You are giving it to a church.  The church and God are not the same thing. 

And, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree, but if I'm making $8K a year (or $667/month), giving $67 to the church is an awful lot.  You certainly would have been able to pack lunches for your three boys with that kind of extra cash. 

But this isn't tithing -- as Jythier has defined it.  It's "just" giving.  Are you saying they are the same?  So as long as 10% of my income goes to other causes, it's fine?  It seems to me that this is a completely different arguement than we've been previously having.

Why is it that you assume that if I am not tithing -- I'm somehow stingy with my money and holding on to it.  It's the same with KFC's comment about the U-Haul.  Choosing not to give money to a church does not make one a scrooge -- or money obsessed.  However, make smart decisions about what you can and can't afford to give based on your responsibilities to your family/children, does mean that you are taking care of yourself rather than forcing the taxpayers or the church to take care of you.   Meet your own needs and then take care of others -- not the other way around.

When you come right down to it, it's all relative whether you make $8,000 or 800,000.   In all actuality I believe, it's the ones who are barely scraping by who give the most.  It seems as tho the more you make the more you hang onto what you have and the more you spend and want.  Scripture bears this out as Christ said "it's easier for a camel to go thru an eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven."  That's why you see the poor widow who give her last two pennies yet see the rich young ruler walk away because he had many possessions.   What a contrast, not unlike what we see today. 

In my church back home they have set aside ten thousand dollars to help the struggling in the church to pay this coming winter's heating bills.  There is no one who goes without in our church.  We take care of our own by doing all sorts of things to make this happen. 

We also pledged last I knew (it may be more now) 10% of our incoming funds to go back out to the Missionaries we support.  Every year as we grew both in body and money we would look for another missionary to support out in the mission field.   Last I knew we had one family in Brazil, One in Italy, one in Poland, and one in Kiev and another I'm not sure where exactly.  We also do alot in Hondorus supporting a team who goes there yearly to do dental work for the poorest of the poor who line up for miles with teeth that need to be pulled and taken care of.  Basically all our team does is pull teeth and give out toothpaste and toothbrushes.......loads of them.. 

So when your money goes to a good church body, there is much use for it to support the cause of Christ.  In our church we had only two pastors on the payroll and they were not paid more than 44K either of them for fulltime work. 

It's good to be good stewards of your money and make sure it's going to a god cause, but it's an excuse if you say you need it more than those in Hondorus (or the like)  who live in squalor and have never in their life  seen a dentist before.  Imagine being a young mother of young kids and having all your teeth pulled out with only novacain and then watching your kids have theirs pulled out as well.  Now imagine the big toothless smiies.  They are more appreciative than anybody you have ever seen and actually jump for joy at the thought that they no longer have pain....or teeth for that matter.  To them, they just won the lottery.   

 I wouldn't feel guilty giving my kids popcorn or peanut butter or mac n'cheese if I have to when I think of those out there who eat dirt and leaves and never in their life have seen a real honest to goodness toilet. 

Tithing and giving are the same.  There is no where in scripture where it says to any particular organization.  As Christians, yes we should give to support the church and our pastor because the church is doing the work of God and it helps if they have funds to do things with. .  But tithing can take on many forms.  We can give to anything that glorifies God. 

Some people may not be able to go to a church or don't feel they have a good church in their area so they may give to the local food bank or support a missionary. 

I give to World Vision in support of a little boy who lives in another part of the world in poverty.  That's another good thing to do for someone not going to church but looking for ways to give back to God.  Pick up a few kids at $35 a month and support children who live in dire situations where $35 makes a great deal of difference. 

Tithing is just giving a portion back to God in thanks for all that he's allowed you to have.   I hate to call it tithing because there is no command for it especially in the NT.  But giving to God is commanded of us, in time, talent and treasure. 

Scripture says that we are Christ's body.  He does not separate himself from His church.  Now your coming from a Catholic background has another meaning  for church than it would for me or Jythier . 

Christ is the head of the church and the people are his hands and feet.  To give to a good local church is the same as giving back to God. 

because that's not what God tells us to do. It runs counter to scripture. You're telling us to go against scripture and what Christians have known to be true for thousands of years.   We are to give our firstfruits back to God and then we will be blessed and like I've said already, he even says we can test him on this to see if what he says is true. 

It all comes down to faith as Ted put it.  Faith that our needs will be met even in those times of uncertainty.  In fact that's when we really need to give. 

I agree!

But He still provides.

You can't really give it to God (I think I've called it 'giving to God' in this thread or the other thread and that's wrong) because it's already God's.  You are simply allocating the only 10% of God's money that he gave you specific direction on to the correct place.  The rest of it is left to your discretion.

I feel like we're just going in circles, so I'm not going to further this discussion, as I would only be repeating myself again and you would probably just repeat yourself again too.

Let' me be clear, I'm not opposed to giving -- but I do not see getting government benefits (ie, free lunches) as being "taken care of by God" -- I see it as taking benefits away from someone else who needs it just as much or more and who couldn't afford to give $800/year away to the Church.

And as Tex pointed out on the other thread, if you give more than you can afford and you don't get "blessed" by God, does that mean you didn't have enough faith?!? 

KFC-- I'm happy that you are a giver.  I think its great when people give --and do so willingly and of their own fruition.  You are very quick to point out how great your efforts are (giving to kids in Hondorous for example).  Before you are so quick to judge others (or hold yourself up as an example to others) you should consider for a minute that there is a lot that you don't know.  Many people give anonymously and don't feel the need for public cheers for all they do. 

It says the local storehouse, which is pretty vague.  But I say it means the local church, and since I am always right, you better get back in line!

I also want to point out that there are different interpretations of the scripture about the widow -- in fact there is a very good one at http://www.nomoretithing.org/nmt_truth_widow.htm that suggests that the scripture is not about how the widow is a model for giving, but rather that the scripture is an example of how the teachers of the law were exploiting the widow into giving and 'devouring her house' which displeases God.

hahahaha ok, you've got me a-shakin' in my sandals! 

you must be speaking of Malachi?  Again, this was a Jewish concept never given to the Christians in the NT although the principle to give is for both Jew and Gentile. 

of course God can use whatever means he wants to make sure you're provided for whether that means a doorbell ring with a meal from a neighbor or free lunches from the government.  He says he puts rulers in their positions and the government is under his control to begin with.  God works all things good for those who love God and are called according to his purpose.

You seem to have an issue with the free lunches.  Ok, going back to the math..........making $8,000 in taxable income qualified a family back then (like mine) for free lunches.  If I decided to give God a portion of that money whether it be  $200$400 or $800 or whatever it doesn't make me any less eligible before or after.  We were very thankful for the kids free lunches back then and only used that service for maybe three or four years or so until our business got running.  Later on we gave back the $500 to the church when we could afford to do so many years later.  We never forgot that. 

I never said to "give more than you can afford."  What I did say is that everyone regardless of income (all is relative) can give 10 cents on the dollar to God and not be harmed.  And instead, can be very blessed.  God says the storehouse will be open to you.....story after story after  tesimony after testimony  have borne this out. 

You are speaking of having a clenched tight fist, holding tightly to everything you have because you deem yourself as more worthy than the next guy.  I'm saying, open your clenched fist and by doing so, having your hand open giving to God also allows God to give back to you in that same opened hand.  Open to overflowing blessings from above. 

oh please.  I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't?  And you're very quick to assume what we are saying is untrue even though we have first hand knowledge of experiencing it to be true.

 First of all I'm speaking in general terms only telling you what my church does back home in giving us opportunities to give of our time and treasure .  I gave you no indication what I give and don't give other than the fact I support a child from World Vision.  I never said what I do or don't do for the team that travels to Hondorus.  You have no idea what I do or don't do or how much I give or don't give.  It's not your business to know.   

I'm not judging anyone and find you are taking this all too personally. That I can't help other than to think you must be convicted here about all this.   That's not a bad thing btw.   I also give anonymously and think that's a good way to give.  So no disagreement there.   

This is just a discussion  group, not a judgment hall. 

Giving starts with the heart and is between you and God period. 

We are going to have to agree to disagree about whether or not 10% can be more than someone can afford.  Also, I don't think that you should be giving to get back.  Tithing is not a way to be blessed by God and God doesn't require that you give to him before he'll bless you (also to an earlier point, I'm not sure that firstfruit is relevant because 1) it was about crops and doesn't translate to $ and 2) why are we upholding this one law of the OT and not the other laws (animal sacrifice, for example))

I agree -- but didn't think you thought this with your first comment (about something being wrong with your heart if you aren't giving).

You say that you aren't sitting in judgement of me (or anyone else) but then you make a comment about my "clenched fist." 

First hand knowledge that God blesses you more than anyone else because you are a believer and tithe?  There are plenty of others who have first hand knowledge that praying to God isn't always enough. 

You are right -- because I don't agree with everything you say I must not be as generous giver or as good a Christian as you. 

I feel no need to prove myself to anyone -- but I will, each and every time I'm given the opportunity, stand up for those who are made to feel inferior because they don't "give enough."