I checked out the widow's gift site.  Jesus did not command them to give it back to her.  Jesus did not take the coins out of the box and hand them back to her.  If he had, that may have been the point.

Hey FS,

I have seen and been in many churches that have done this.  This is the first indicator to me that they are spiritually dying if they are focused on finances. 

Let's stop and think what it is about these comments that are abhorent to you and others.

Yes, it's a form of guilt trip but even more so this is full fledged legalism.  Just as Paul mentions in Galatians, observance of the Law does not offer salvation (nor does the Torah ever make such a claim).  Anytime you hear a stipulation regarding your salvation, legalism abounds.  What do I mean?

Well, when I was attending Church of Christ for a period I was told that I was going to hell because I didn't attend 3 times a week.  I kid you not.  I recall in another church that people told me that if I wasn't doing XYZ then I was going to hell. 

Yep, all point to legalism.

Man, has NO authority to offer salvation based on any form of works (including tithe). 

So with that you are correct, it's a scare tactic!

Sadly the 'churches' offer more legalism than they accuse the Jews of Jesus' and Paul's days.

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I come from the thought that a tithe is not necessarily monetary.  I see tithing as helping others (more so the down trodden).  Sure tithing money to the church so that it can be redistributed is not a 'bad' thing but it I don't believe it is the ONLY tithe you have to give.  Making a little extra food to feed an elderly, stopping to help a lady with a flat tire, shoveling the unmarried neighbor lady's driveway just because.  These are all goodwill offerings.  Again it goes back to the matter of the heart.

Those are my thoughts.

I don't care who you are or what your income level happens to be... 10% is a significant amount.

You're the one cheapening it.  All I keep saying is "God will provide."  I'm saying it because He promised it.

Also, don't send your money across the country to some guy on TV.  That's not the local church, or the local storehouse.  If you do, though, God will still provide.

I hate it when they treat it like the lottery too.  It's not about what you're getting back, because you're going to be provided for whether you tithe or not.  But you can tithe in faith because He will provide for you no matter how much you make or how much you tithe/give.

So what about all those that God doesn't provide for?  How do they fit into your worldview?

Firstfruit can be used in a variety of ways.  it's basically just giving God back the first of whatever he gives us.  Christ was called a firstfruit because he was the first one to raise from the dead and it promises that there will be more to follow.  That's what giving is all about.  We give God our firstfruit and he promises us there will be more to follow.  We will be blessed.  Israel in the OT was blessed when they continued in this vein.  When they got away from giving to God, they found themselves on their own and realized too late they had no blessing upon them like they did back in the day when they were obedient. 

it's a heart issue regardless.    We give or not give according to what's going on in our hearts.  It's been said you can tell alot about a person in just two ways.....what they spend their money on and what they have on their bookshelf.   "where your treasure is, there is your heart also." 

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but I was speaking in general terms, not you specifically.  When you were speaking or advocating not giving but give to yourself first I was saying you were speaking of having a "tight fist" meaning in a general way.  I have no idea what you do personally nor do I need to know.   So I really have no idea what you do. 

Absolutely.  I agree and was the first one to bring this up.  So we agree on this. 

While I do believe God blesses those and honors those who honor him that's not what I'm talking about here.  I've heard many testimonies from others even right here on JU by those who gave and were surpised at how it blessed them.  I heard quite a story yesterday from a friend here in my neighborhood when we discussed this issue. 

and nobody is accusing anybody of anything.  We are just having a discussion here.  You are taking this way too personal. 

agree, nor should you.  It's always been between you and God anyway. 

Well said AD.  That's what it's all about.  It's a matter of the heart. 

We must remember that it's all God's to begin with so when we let it go, we're just giving back to him what he's given to us in the first place. 

If I remember correctly, miss Whip, you publicly announced you would pay everyone back or forward it on to a charity or whatever.  My thought at the time was, "I'm going to need money because now my wife is pregnant.  Is this God providing?" So I said, since you OFFERED, yes, I'll have it back please whenever you're able to.

Now, sometime later, I was approached to help someone else in need on this board.  So I said to myself, "I would love to help, but I don't really have any money... hey, what about that money LW was going to pay back?  It would be much better to send it on to a person who needs it more than me!"  So I approached you to send it on, PER YOUR ORIGINAL OFFER, with no more expectation of ever seeing that money again, just like I had when I gave it to you, until you offered.

By the way, you can forward that money on with no problem (send it anonymously if you want, so I have no claim to it) as God has already fulfilled your challenge.  In fact, fulfilled it just after I told you to send the money along.  In fact, fulfilled it without ME asking Him to do so, and in the exact amount.  God always provides, for everyone.

You're right though - I am selfish.  I wanted my money back instead of just saying send it along.  I had great things planned to do with that money.  Buy stuff, for myself, because I wanted them.  It wasn't going to be used to help anybody, even my own family.  And that, LW, is why I'm so glad that you hadn't given it back yet, thank God.  Because now it can go to good instead. 

What does any of this have to do with tithing though?

Jay, God knows your heart.  I think you are a very generous person only trying to do what you believe God led you to do.  Don't feel bad about that. 

Don't worry about what LW is saying.  It doesn't really matter because in the long run it's only what God thinks that matters anyhow. 

Really? I thought we were discussing this because FS stated that she's no longer at a particular church because they made her feel bad about not tithing.  Maybe you were reading a different blog?

The rub is, as always, did God lead me to do it, or did I just come up with it myself to look good?  I obviously ruined that, if it was what I was going for.  God provides humility as well.

I think that's wrong.  If you don't tithe, no-one should be publicly saying anything about it.  But if you are a MEMBER of a church that you knew going in believed in tithing, you should be held accountable for it, in the way the Bible states that sins should be confronted.

If you don't believe God provides, then don't tithe when you don't have excess, because that would be negligent to your family.

Since I know God will provide for me, then I will tithe even when I 'can't afford', because I know I will have enough at the end of the day regardless, and that I really can't afford not to.

Amen!

AD, so true!

Ted, thanks for your explanation, I think that is great, to show/teach your kids by doing!  I try to do the same!   A wonderful example you are!

Whip, thanks for reminding me about that Micro lending program!  I will keep my eye on it for a moment when I can be of help.  Come to think of it, I micro manage everyday, or every other week, with one family or another!LOL!  I look for nothing back because I know they can't give back at the moment and I'm only too happy to help as I can anyway.

Shades, I see your points and I agree that giving should not be done with the expectations to receive.

Jythier, ooooh, you made Whip mad!

KFC, I do agree that a family should give what they can afford, even if it is less than 10%, and even though for some 10% is not a lot, but it is still too much by some others. [and I'm not judging, I'm just stating an opinion] as Ted says, it IS a significant amount!

Why not? I don't tithe, and I see nothing wrong in saying I don't.  I wrote about this because of a couple of programs I watched on tv on sunday and it was about family and their finances and what they need to do get themselves out of the holes they are in.  Of the family featured (yeah, my grammar is bad) three of them had tithes to their churchs of a significant amount on a monthly basis.  If they were to not have the tithes for a while, they could have some recovery time from their money problems but some balked at the thought of even not tithing, even for a few months!

And you're saying that the only reason for going to church is tithing?  It sounds like it since you think or believe that all members should be held accountable?  This is wrong! 

No, I'm discussing tithing in a thread about tithing and keeping to the subject.  So of course it sounds like all I'm talking about is tithing in regards to the church.  It is all I'm talking about!  But that's not what the church is for.

All members of a church that states they expect a tithe need to be held acocuntable, as when you sign up you know what's expected and what they believe.  If you don't believe in tithing, that's probably not the church for you anyway.  If it is, you should discuss it with the pastor before joining.  Note that I'm not saying anything about ATTENDING a church, just being a member.

This sounds more like a cult than a 'church.'