Perhaps the youth of today have acquired some skills over the older generations in the use of this vast technology, but still they are missing many of life's essences which combine to create experiences only found outside this virtual world known as the internet.

In a fundamental way this is very true but you can also argue that the internet can provide surrogate experience in the face of a lack of the ability to learn in the real world. To use one of your examples

an apprentice cabinet maker going to acquire the skills to construct or finely finish an article of fine furniture

I could learn about many of the skills needed to create three dimensional objects using 3D software. I could CAD to learn much of what is necessary to understand the form of furniture, examine and take apart furniture models, learn how the various parts work together and experiment with the texture and colour. Tutorials can teach me much of the basics of working with whatever material it is. While it is not a great replacement for studying in a real world class, if I were unable to afford or lived in a location where it were just not possible to take a course such as that, then the internet and the computer would have been a workable replacement.

There are also video courses you can take online, interactive ones and I'm sure as the internet starts to provide more real application like sites we'll see the quality and possibilities the web offers soar.

Furthermore, there's no evidence to suggest that computer based learning has improved the dissemination and/or retention of knowledge over that of the traditional classroom based education.

I don't think this is true. A bit of googling brought this up from eschoolnews.com. A study polled a random sample from QED's National Education Database, which contains all public schools in the United States. The company conducted 400 telephone surveys with public school core curriculum teachers. The majority of those surveyed said the internet has played a positive role in educating U.S. children. Of the teachers who said they use the internet to teach, 38 percent said it has given them access to more instructional materials and resources.

I'm sure I could find information that supports your belief too, statistics can be used to show anything. I just wanted to highlight that the point that there is much research out there to show the benefits of e-learning.

Most of the rest of what's been said I do agree with. I just lean more towards supporting the net for what it is doing.

In a fundamental way this is very true but you can also argue that the internet can provide surrogate experience in the face of a lack of the ability to learn in the real world

For sure, the internet provides surrogate learning experiences in the absence of real world opportunities, and in that light I must agree it is an important tool. Heck, with somewhat restricted mobility these days I use the internet to glean information quite regularly. My concern, however, relates to when educators substitute or completely replace hands on experience for the convenience of virtual methods. To me, that is criminal and a deprivation of the senses which robs the student of true awareness. There's an old saying that goes: " Use it or lose it.", and I guess what I'm trying to say is that our instincts and senses compare poorly to those, more sharply honed ones of our hunter gatherer ancestors, because progress created easier lifestyles which continually required them less and less, and I'd hate to see future generations lose even more, because too great a dependence on virtual worlds dictate they're hardly needed at all.

Of course we should utilise the internet to our advantage, but not to the exclusion of the real life, hands on experiences which stimulate our instincts and senses. Of course an apprentice cabinet maker could obtain much information and theory from the internet, but with prior workshop experience, he/she would be able to comprehend and absorb it more efficiently to put it into practice.

what I'm trying to say is that our instincts and senses compare poorly to those, more sharply honed ones of our hunter gatherer ancestors, because progress created easier lifestyles which continually required them less and less, and I'd hate to see future generations lose even more, because too great a dependence on virtual worlds dictate they're hardly needed at all.

These are solid points. I'm not arguing that we should all eventually live in Matrix pods and ignore the real world but I believe there is a middle ground where we can accept that some loss is inevitable and even desirable if you want to get the most from the world of tomorrow.

A study of a tribe that had no access to the modern world in any way, showed some serious differences in the way they percieved their world. A single example, when we look at two lines converging we immediately interpret that within a 3D space, two lines converging to us means the lines are going further away. To this tribe that was not so because they had no experience of a hard edged landscape.

So my point really is that we are gaining our skills based on the world around us and the more that world embraces technology, the more we will adapt to that to our benefit. Tomorrows hunter gatherer instincts will rely much more on being able to search and adapt quickly to new software. That will give you an edge over your rivals. You will of course still need to balance that with real world skills too. Achieving a balance between the two will be a winning formula I believe. That may be unnaceptable for many who place higher values on traditional and long established other priorities but as with any revolution (in this case, the digital revolution) there will be casualties and a lot of pain along the way as the current state changes into a new one.

I do have some worries about the pace of change, I don't think we are equipped to handle it and it isn't as if we are heading for some new state that we can all eventually settle in. The digital revolution is by its very nature is perpetual. You're either on the train adapting with it or not. Classicly revolutions lead to a new state, a painful change that brings about an improvement in society in general. A change that happens quickly but eventually levels out. There can be no leveling out for future generations but I guess that's a problem for them to figure out.

So my point really is that we are gaining our skills based on the world around us and the more that world embraces technology, the more we will adapt to that to our benefit. Tomorrows hunter gatherer instincts will rely much more on being able to search and adapt quickly to new software. That will give you an edge over your rivals. You will of course still need to balance that with real world skills too. Achieving a balance between the two will be a winning formula I believe

When it's all boiled down, we're saying very similar things. It's just my hope for future generations that we maintain a healthy balance between the virtual and real worlds so they too can experience, enjoy and appreciate both the physical and the virtual. My fear is that technology's rapid advancement will eventually make many opportunities and skills redundant, to the point of extinction. Computers and the internet have provided us with many tools to enhance medicine, agriculture and transportation, to mention only a few areas essential to our survival, but at the grass roots level, in the absence of technology, the cows still need milking and the corn sown and reaped, doctors and nurses still have to administer patient care on a human level. Without having the 'basic' training on a 'real world' level, these and other human tasks would become daunting to an unacceptable level if our first and only experiences were virtual; particularly in the areas of medicine where lives are at stake. Furthermore, software simply does not exist for every aspect of our lives and probably never will, so it seems we inevitably must depend on human effort and ability to perform those tasks which computer technology does not.

I believe that if we hone our natural instincts, senses and abilities with practical, hands on experience prior to immersing ourselves in the internet, we then develop a much better understanding and appreciation for that which we glean from it.

I don't think this is true. A bit of googling brought this up from eschoolnews.com. A study polled a random sample from QED's National Education Database, which contains all public schools in the United States. The company conducted 400 telephone surveys with public school core curriculum teachers. The majority of those surveyed said the internet has played a positive role in educating U.S. children. Of the teachers who said they use the internet to teach, 38 percent said it has given them access to more instructional materials and resources.

Absolutely, computers have been an asset, there's no way it couldn't be. With the right teachers using them as a tool in their teaching, the possibilities of what they teach are endless!

My concern, however, relates to when educators substitute or completely replace hands on experience for the convenience of virtual methods. To me, that is criminal and a deprivation of the senses which robs the student of true awareness. There's an old saying that goes: " Use it or lose it.", and I guess what I'm trying to say is that our instincts and senses compare poorly to those, more sharply honed ones of our hunter gatherer ancestors, because progress created easier lifestyles which continually required them less and less, and I'd hate to see future generations lose even more, because too great a dependence on virtual worlds dictate they're hardly needed at all. Of course we should utilise the internet to our advantage, but not to the exclusion of the real life, hands on experiences which stimulate our instincts and senses. Of course an apprentice cabinet maker could obtain much information and theory from the internet, but with prior workshop experience, he/she would be able to comprehend and absorb it more efficiently to put it into practice.

Very well said! Again, your points here is the reason for my article! We have the technology, it's great, it adds a new dimension to our lives. It gives us boundless opportunities and I would never knock that, it gives me the opportunity to meet people like you guys here on JU! So most certainly, it is an asset and of course as time goes by it will get so much better. I actually can't wait to see how much better our technology becomes!

But we shouldn't lose touch with the essence of learning. The methods that will continually grow with time, and get better, and of course, I would hate to have a teacher who isn't with the times; but not exposing students to a solid foundation would be sad.

My fear is that technology's rapid advancement will eventually make many opportunities and skills redundant, to the point of extinction. Computers and the internet have provided us with many tools to enhance medicine, agriculture and transportation, to mention only a few areas essential to our survival, but at the grass roots level, in the absence of technology, the cows still need milking and the corn sown and reaped, doctors and nurses still have to administer patient care on a human level. Without having the 'basic' training on a 'real world' level, these and other human tasks would become daunting to an unacceptable level if our first and only experiences were virtual; particularly in the areas of medicine where lives are at stake. Furthermore, software simply does not exist for every aspect of our lives and probably never will, so it seems we inevitably must depend on human effort and ability to perform those tasks which computer technology does not.

Unless of course our technology becomes such that humans won't have to do the mundane stuff anymore and develop another race like those in I Robot!!! hey, it's possible!!!

Starkers and Riddick, you two have added some very insightful points and spoke very eloquently which made my article that more interesting! I thank you both for adding another dimension of thinking to this piece! Hey, not that I'm saying good bye, if you have more to add, please continue...it's pretty interesting!

When it's all boiled down, we're saying very similar things

Absolutely we are and I agree with most of what you've said all along. It could be more accurate to say however that we agree on the same point looking in different directions and I don't think were going to change each others minds there. Your concern is mainly about what we are losing and mine is mainly about what we are gaining but I'm sure we both have an eye on the other direction too.

Starkers and Riddick, you two have added some very insightful points and spoke very eloquently which made my article that more interesting!

You raised an excellent topic foreverserenity and I've had a ball replying to this thread

ya... you see it like this because your jealous
you talk and talk about how your generation is better somehow

the fact is the people of my generation have so much more potential as such a vast wealth of knowledge = more advanced minds, not underdeveloped

have you done ANY research or are you just ranting because of the alzheimers?

btw your grammar is worse than mine and im not even giving a damn -

something to add - cows do not need milking because we have machines for that, more technology means less humans to do faggot shit jobs like that, thus freeing them to work at a higher and higher level

this is called being efficient

its a well known principle even in your world so distant from anyone 10 years younger than you

you are talking about a singularity of technology if you dont understand the meaning of a 'singularity' google it - oh wait you will actually become retarded by googling things...

you said your son didnt know why anyone would use an encyclopedia... what is the difference between googling a word and looking it up in a book? time

so lets think now... more words looked up to find the same meanings in much less time = retardation of a generation! wow your logic is BROKEN

if anything it stifles a deterent of our interests and brings us to a higher platau were we are free to explore what we are so inclined to pursue

your arguements are completely irrational and cannot be backed by any serious data

"While using the Internet is very helpful and might be a quicker way find what you seek (and there’s nothing wrong with that)."

sentence fragment loser

sentence fragment loser

I counted 11 grammatical errors in your post. I'd normally not do that, I think forums are a place where you can relax, the linguistic equivilent of wearing jeans and a scruffy t-shirt. A little hypocritical to not practise what you preach though.

the fact is the people of my generation have so much more potential as such a vast wealth of knowledge = more advanced minds, not underdeveloped

If you're acting as the spokesman for said advanced minds, forgive me for having my doubts.

something to add - cows do not need milking because we have machines for that, more technology means less humans to do faggot shit jobs like that, thus freeing them to work at a higher and higher level

And here we part company on any chance of a discussion. The reason I enjoyed this thread so much was the real lack of this kind of hatred I see so commonly in forums today.

you see it like this because your jealous

Hardly! Youth does not have a monopoly on its use or availability, its advancements or its opportunities. It's available to me also, the past, present and future of it. It would be extremely arrogant to think that technology an innovation revolves around and is purely for the now and future generations....thousands of 30 plus software developers worldwide would have a thing or two to say about that.

you talk and talk about how your generation is better somehow

No, it's not better...nobody said it was! Values and methods change over time, that's accepted...respect for others and their opinions should not.

have you done ANY research or are you just ranting because of the alzheimers?

See comment 2....

something to add - cows do not need milking because we have machines for that, more technology means less humans to do faggot shit jobs like that, thus freeing them to work at a higher and higher level

Really? Milking machines do not bring the cows in and attach themselves, turn themselves on and off as required. Until 'I Robot' becomes a viable, affordable reality for all menial tasks, which is no time immediate, human effort and intervention will remain essential....even more efficient in some instances.

Furthermore, WHODS, you have taken various comments of more than one person and addressed them as though you were replying only to one. Without quotations and some reference points, this would be confusing to recent arrivals to the thread, and comes across as a rant about 'old' people, laced with a bit of sarcasm which could be perceived as disrespect by some. Hopefully, future contributions will offer a little more...sorry.

From what I have read here so far, the one book everyone needs is a dictionary...

From what I have read here so far, the one book everyone needs is a dictionary...

I counted two spelling mistakes on the front page on your article section

I'm going to get some horrible reputation as a spelling troll and I'm the first to admit i dunt du dat spel fing veri wel.

Fuzzy...you need to either put on glasses are sit and re-read this thread again. It's just semantics are you are just being petty!


Starkers and Riddick, don't even try to respond to someone like Whods, he/she is not worth your intelligent response.

Whods, I was getting ready to respond to you in kind and blast you but I see you're just a troll with no apparent form of comprehension or respect for others opinions without trashing them. If you're the future I fear for us all. Thank heavens that you're not! I have only one other thing to say...Have a nice day! and if you had any sense at all you would get what that means!

You raised an excellent topic foreverserenity and I've had a ball replying to this thread

Oh I forgot to say thank you very much!

The reason I enjoyed this thread so much was the real lack of this kind of hatred I see so commonly in forums today.

Don't let people like this upset you too much, it's not worth it, ignorance is a sin, it really is!

Furthermore, WHODS, you have taken various comments of more than one person and addressed them as though you were replying only to one. Without quotations and some reference points, this would be confusing to recent arrivals to the thread, and comes across as a rant about 'old' people, laced with a bit of sarcasm which could be perceived as disrespect by some. Hopefully, future contributions will offer a little more...sorry.

Perhaps he forgot to take his medication today Starkers, that's the only explanation I have for this type of response. I'm nonplussed! Heheheh, now there's a word for you Whods, look it up!

Perhaps he forgot to take his medication today Starkers, that's the only explanation I have for this type of response.

No, foreverserenity, it had nothing to do with medication or the lack thereof...the lack of respect, manners and common courtesy, however, did.

And even in my reply to such blatant arrogance, I was still polite. Sadly, it's a rapidly diminishing virtue among some of today's youth, as are some other values which help make us decent, respectable and considerate of others. This relates precisely to my concerns about the internet being seen as a replacement for human interaction and developing real world communicative skills. Without these things, we become desensitised and therefore more able to trample over others and their feelings, both on and off the internet. However, it's unlikely that Whods and similarly minded whipper snappers would have the bravado (piss and wind, as my father used to call it) to display such contempt and disrespect face to face. It's a whole different ball of wax when one is confronted with real human emotion, the reality of tears, sorrow, grief, anger and even reprisals. Computers and the internet cannot instil in us or teach these human characteristics because they are lifeless entities without appreciation or consideration of the human condition. In essence, my concern, fear if you like, is that too great a dependence on these technologies will eventually dehumanise the human race and we'll become one with the machine. Is that what we really want for our children, grandchildren and future generations. By all means, we should continue to be innovative and progress in using all available technologies to become more productive and efficient, but let us not become mere extensions of the machine in our quest to master our own destinies. This is not what our maker intended for us.

To me, our desensitisation is becoming more and more apparent with the proliferation and increasing need of special effects, violence and sex in various types of media. It's almost as if the human element has been forgotten and there must be a huge adrenalin rush to stir any kind of feeling and/or appreciation. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy good action movies as much as the next person, but there was a time when sex and violence was more often implied, rather than being explicit for the sake of it, and people were entertained more by the human aspects to which they related and identified with, instead of the computer generated graphics which are emotionless and therefore inhuman. There is nothing wrong with the technology, or its use in moderation, but in their quest to thrill, some producers go into visual overkill and I'm glad there's still some old romantics amongst them who haven't forgotten the human plot

Furthermore, intelligence is not measured by the sheer volume of knowledge or at the speed at which it was acquired, but on the ability to process and efficiently use it with wisdom. Therefore, it is more about an individuals aptitude and ability to process information, rather than internet based or traditional learning having a distinct advantage over the other. Each will obviously have advantages to varying individuals so should be used in conjunction with rather than as opposed to.

Also, I've met some intelligent, articulate and well mannered young people for whom I have the utmost respect and admiration.

intelligence is not measured by the sheer volume of knowledge or at the speed at which it was acquired, but on the ability to process and efficiently use it with wisdom.

Well said!

Also, I've met some intelligent, articulate and well mannered young people for whom I have the utmost respect and admiration.

Me too Starkers. And I'm glad they're out there!