One man, who is an Atheist, going into a court of a law to demand that the words "under god" be taken out of something that has been around for a long time, even though the two words themselves were only added in the 1980's, does interfare with my rights when he doesn't want them utttered publicly.

the pledge of allegiance is less than 100 years old. it was written by a socialist (a french socialist to boot). the two words were added in the 50s. there are christians who believe pledging allegiance to a flag violates the commandment forbidding worshipping graven images; there are other christians who believe it is idolatry to give to the nation that which is owed only to god.

incidentally, our judicial system is not derived from any form of theism. it's no crime to pledge allegiance to a graven image.

An atheist depends ironically on God's existence. If indeed God did not exist then neither would the atheist, for there would be nothing to be against.

Good logic, Steven. I like it.

read George H. Smith on Atheism. At least its honest.

That's a good book foxjazz. But Smith exclusively focuses on a fundamentalist wavelength, (maybe because he's not aware of any other.) Smith's case against God is a straw man, because he doesn't admit that there's more to theism and religious revelations than shallow, literal interpretations and narrow views. One cannot make a successful case against God, because by definition, our finite minds cannot comprehend the 'Infinite Reality'. (It's actually "good news" for us that the Truth cannot be thwarted. It's nothing to get bitter about.)

Atheists don’t fear God they fear religion. For every positive influence religion has on society there are even more negative ones. As an Agnostic, ( which to me means I don’t know how or why we are here and I’m okay with that ), I don’t want religion to have any influence over my life. Many view this war as just another in a long list of religious power struggles. I’ve lost family to this war so it’s obviously having an effect on my life. History has taught us we should be afraid of religion having too much power.

You say you don’t understand how someone could not believe in god but you do understand. Belief is belief, whether you believe something exist or doesn’t exist it’s the same thing. There is as much evidence that God doesn’t exist, as there is that he does.

Atheism is as much a religion as any other belief and in many ways even more potentially dangerous. It is conservative thought without at least some moral guidance. Hitler was an Atheist. It allows someone to feel genetically superior to others. Slavery and ethnic cleansing are brought to you by conservative thought. Of course now liberals are killing them with kindness but that’s another argument.

Conservative and some religious ideals are in fact why freedom isn’t free. All wars ever fought are conservatives fighting conservatives, or liberals and conservatives fighting to be free from more extreme conservative and religious influence. If you feel this is incorrect please tell me of any war fought between liberals countries or organizations, or show me a power hungry liberal dictator or tyrant at any point in history.

An atheist depends ironically on God's existence. If indeed God did not exist then neither would the atheist, for there would be nothing to be against.

Close, however not upon existence of god does the atheist depend, but upon the existence of the theist. Both can exist in the complete absence of god.

So it is BELIEVERS who fear God, not atheists.

Believers should fear God, especially since he can be so awsome, his powers boundless!

I don't believe in the existence of God, so how can I fear him? As dharmagrl says, 'You can't fear something you don't believe in.'

T'is true, you cannot fear what you don't believe in. And I won't say more on that because in doing so it might seems as if I'm trying to persuade you to think otherwise, and I'm not.

That said, I do believe in the existence of people who believe in God. And some of them - not all by any means, just SOME - are pretty scary in my book!)

Haha, you're right about that. I don't mess with some of those folks myself. Not because I'm afraid of them, just because they can be too darn difficult to have a conversation with!

I have never read such panzy ass crap in my recent life.First of all, how can you be an atheist and fear God? Did that require any real thought, or was it rambling?

Er...OK.....I've never heard ANY panzy ass crap myself...interesting terminology! If you read my entire article and not just the first couple of sentences and if you also read everyone's comments and my replies you might want to rephrase your comment!

foxjazz: No need to be such a jerk. ForeverSerenity is a sweet, sincere person. If you had read any of her previous postings you would know this. There's no doubt in my mind that she posted this blog in the spirit of seeking understanding (and perhaps a bit of frustration at the recent ruling) rather than one of divisive rambling.

Thanks Tex. I did point that out to him...to read the previous postings and the entire article for that matter.

think most atheists are happy to let theists get on with their beliefs, without imposing their views. Loud, arrogant atheists can be more noticeable than quiet atheists, just as loud, arrogant Christians can be more noticeable than quiet Christians. But quiet atheists and quiet Christians will normally remain quiet.

Yes Andy, I agree with you here that those who are more arrogant, and loud, will be more noticeable.

We all have different points of view, and our views about deeper issues of existence differ because we’re all at different stages of spiritual growth. Most atheists will remain an atheist throughout the duration of their life because that’s 'where they’re at' in their journey. The journey carries on throughout many other lifetimes, however, (in my view), and the more lifetimes we live the more we grow spiritually, and the more our views and perspectives change until we get a good picture of the way things really are.

Andy I'm impress, your argument here is very reasonable and dare I say profound!

As we grow spiritually, our inner-eyes begin to open. We become "awake", to coin an Eastern phrase, (or "born again", to coin a fundie phrase). We begin to see that life is beautiful and that there’s no such thing as death. As we learn that there’s deeper purpose to life, and that life is eternal, we basically begin to see God, albeit via an inner sense. Over a period of time, (which can span over many lifetimes), our inner-sense blossoms, not unlike a flower blossoms, until we see God - and life's purpose - as clear as day.

Again, profound!! I am very pleased that you explain your idea of spirituality so well. I'm sure others will agree with this logic.

This whole thing could be just as easily turned around as "Why do Christians fear science?" Which of course, most don't.

True and true to both Brad. Most of us don't as you said. Speaking for myself, I know I don't.

I could care less whether someone believes in God or not.

I really don't either, however for me, it is comforting to know that there are others who do as well. At the same time, for me, it is seeking knowledge of what I know nothing about that has me asking questions and putting my thoughts out there.

Actually, that's not necessarily the case. My daughter is a staunch Athiest/Agnostic, despite our having raised her in an atmosphere of open-mindedness. She refuses to say the words 'under God' and has run into some trouble at school for doing so. My youngest believes wholeheartedly in god, so has no issue including those words in the recitation.Some kids actually have minds of their own, y'know....and they aren't afraid to express them.

That is good Dharma, that your child does understand and can stand up for herself. It is also good that you're raising them in an athmosphere of open-mindedness. Oh I absolutely know kids do have their own feelings and thoughts and will stand up for themselves as most of them do. More power to them! I'm glad when they are like that.

it's only by the grace of God that I have eternal life. Does having God in my life help me to be a better person? I hope so in the fact that as He lives in me, I operate within the power of His Holy Spirit and am being transformed to be more like Christ.

I agree with you there and feel the same way!

I'd be willing to bet you would find people within each of those groups that don't consider that they are all of the same faith. They may all believe in a generic "God", but aside from that, some of those denominations have very little in common.

You right about that, they may all disagree with being of the same faith. But they all do serve one God (at least I hope they do!) and this is what I meant when I said that they are all of the same faith. Christianity has so many divisions (and I mean this both literally and linguistically [or should that be in theory?]), the each group has their own way of doing things, most of them, if not all, have re-written the bible to suit their own teachings or concept of what they believe. But all this difference doesn't matter to God, as long as what they do follows the same path that leads to Him.

How can you be a child of someone you don't believe in?

Because we are all of this earth, of this universe, whether you believe in him or not we are all God's children.

People should care about what others believe.

Absolutely, we should all care about what each other believe if for nothing else but out of respect for each other.

Doesn't the Bible say "Recruit recruit recruit?" Spread the "good news".

I don't know which Bible says that but we are told to spread the word of God. It is not however something that is duty bound although other Christians might feel differently about that.

Or better yet, read George H. Smith on Atheism. At least its honest

I'll take this suggestion under consideration.

I was Christian once, and I tell you this. During that time in my life, I was lost. Just plain lost person thinking I am found.

It is unfortunate that you had such a bad experience with Christianity. I know it's terribly difficult for the believer who is among those who are not true leaders and believer of the faith. The cause for disillusionment is strong under circumstances like that. My husband also experienced disillusionment because of people like that who claimed to be Christians and who should have lead by example and nurture his growth in the faith. It is unfortunate that there are those who give Christianity a "bad name" so to speak. I too have experienced such misrepresentations and only my strong beliefs and personal quest for what I know carried me through.

Every read the "Jesus Mysteries"?

No, I haven't.

Look what Religion did to the twin towers. Yes religion did that, doesn't mater what type.

Yes, people who were fundamentalists and warped in their thinking of their religion did that. They however, are not a good excuse as to why you shouldn't believe in anything. They are the antithesis as to why we all should believe in something.

Let me tell you, its human nature to condem. Even as a "Good Christian" thumbs his nose and condemns others that don't believe the same.I have seen it time and time again. There is not one Christian that doen't Judge.

Some Christians can be judgmental. However the same can be said of everyone. We make presumptions no matter how open and forgiving an individual is, somehow we do judge, albeit unintentionally, because it is what we as humans do.

that I have hosted have been places where most have willingly bowed their heads with the rest of us, even though they didn't echo our sentiments.But, you see, such understanding must be mutual. When I am at events hosted by THEM, if I pray before a meal, I do so silently and relatively inconspicuously. They deserve the same level of respect that I do.

And this is done out of respect by you and your friends. Mutual understanding is definately all that one can ask for. Without it there is nothing, no respect, no friendship.

I believe that many (not ALL; some are just A**HOLES!) antitheist reactions are responses to a lifetime of experiencing people of various religious persuasions who do NOT practice such mutual respect. I could be wrong on this, but it seems to be the case, in my experience, at least.

From what I've read and what I do understand now, I definately agree with you on this!

"an ALMOST fanatical devotion to the pope!" Forty lashes for misquoting Monty Python!

Haha...

An atheist depends ironically on God's existence. If indeed God did not exist then neither would the atheist, for there would be nothing to be against.

Quite a logical response Stevendedalus! How else would anyone know they don't believe, and how else would those who do, know that they do believe and or not Atheist? Apparently one does not exist without the other. To everything there is an opposite, this is true!

the two words were added in the 50s

I must of read incorrectly because I read they were added in the 80's, now I wished I remember where I saw that!

there are christians who believe pledging allegiance to a flag violates the commandment forbidding worshipping graven images; there are other christians who believe it is idolatry to give to the nation that which is owed only to god.

Personally, I've never heard of any that do, but you could be right about this. If they do believe that to say it is worshipping a graven image then they will object to saying it.

That's a good book foxjazz. But Smith exclusively focuses on a fundamentalist wavelength, (maybe because he's not aware of any other.) Smith's case against God is a straw man, because he doesn't admit that there's more to theism and religious revelations than shallow, literal interpretations and narrow views. One cannot make a successful case against God, because by definition, our finite minds cannot comprehend the 'Infinite Reality'. (It's actually "good news" for us that the Truth cannot be thwarted. It's nothing to get bitter about.)

Thanks for the brief review!

For every positive influence religion has on society there are even more negative ones

I will agree with you here.

I don’t want religion to have any influence over my life

Of course this is your right!

I’ve lost family to this war

I'm so sorry for your loss.

You say you don’t understand how someone could not believe in god but you do understand. Belief is belief, whether you believe something exist or doesn’t exist it’s the same thing. There is as much evidence that God doesn’t exist, as there is that he does.

You're right, in a "round-a-about" way (as some might say) you make sense. It might not sound logical but it is.

Conservative and some religious ideals are in fact why freedom isn’t free. All wars ever fought are conservatives fighting conservatives, or liberals and conservatives fighting to be free from more extreme conservative and religious influence. If you feel this is incorrect please tell me of any war fought between liberals countries or organizations, or show me a power hungry liberal dictator or tyrant at any point in history.

To give you an honest answer, I don't know if you're wrong or not. I do agree that "liberals and conservatives fighting to be free from more extreme conservative and religious influence", Because when our freedom, our very existence and way of being is threatened we will stand up to the aggressor and we will want to correct the wrongs. There have been and are so many power hungry dictators. I don't know any who may have been or may be liberal though because they all seem to believe in their own causes and consider themselves to be "gods" hence the dictatorship!

I am an agnostic. I believe there are things spiritual and they come in many forms. However, religion should be a private belief system...limited to your internal sphere of influence. Don't tell me to take the name of God in crisis...I already do that...don't tell me to donate and volunteer in the name of God...I do it for my own conscience...Don't tell me that you are a religious organization taking care of poor kids...tell me you are a charitable institution and you believe in God...Dont tell me your God is better than mine and you will go to hell with your beliefs...tell me we can learn from each other
God is not a political manifesto...nor is he a vote bank. The only way I see to separate Church and State...prevent other religious belief systems from being trampled...and bring equality to all spiritual beliefs is the common denominator. Make its usage limited to personal purposes (like the tivo:))...why is it hard to understand that Atheists are balancing the system not imbalancing it.

Quite a logical response Stevendedalus! How else would anyone know they don't believe, and how else would those who do, know that they do believe and or not Atheist? Apparently one does not exist without the other. To everything there is an opposite, this is true!

It would be interesting to know if people start out believing. I personally think it's 'taught behavior', but since a baby can't speak I guess we'll never really know either way.
For me, the only reason (or context rather) to think about the existence of (a) god is in talking to people who believe in such a being. If I'd never met one of those, I doubt I would have called myself an atheist As I see it though, for a true believer his/her existence is defined by that belief and would probably shine through in a self-description of any kind.

In short, I'd have to agree with demosthenes locke in saying it's the theist that defines the atheist.

Close, however not upon existence of god does the atheist depend, but upon the existence of the theist.

Good logic, although some Atheist might disagree with you on this. How can there be one belief system without the other? How else would someone who doesn't believe in God knows he/she doesn't if it wasn't for someone proclaiming they did? So pretty logical to me.

However, religion should be a private belief system...limited to your internal sphere of influence.

And it is to many a very private belief system.

It would be interesting to know if people start out believing. I personally think it's 'taught behavior'

I have to agree that it is taught behavior. Each individual learned from someone what he/she believes, even if they came to that knowledge on their own, they learned it from somewhere/someone.

What is it about God that Atheists fear so much?

The fact that they may be wrong. man hates to be wrong, and the final judgement has no redirect. Christians (Jews, Muslims, etc) have no fear of being wrong. If they are wrong, they will never know it. Atheist will. They are sad and pathetic in a way. They pretend to believe when in fact their very fear indicates they really dont. And that is why they must fight the truth. To allow even a smidgen of doubt into their world is to admit they are wrong. And there is no counter argument.

They are to be pitied. They know only fear and superstition. Sad. Very Sad.

But they all do serve one God (at least I hope they do!) and this is what I meant when I said that they are all of the same faith. Christianity has so many divisions (and I mean this both literally and linguistically [or should that be in theory?]), the each group has their own way of doing things, most of them, if not all, have re-written the bible to suit their own teachings or concept of what they believe. But all this difference doesn't matter to God, as long as what they do follows the same path that leads to Him.

Here is where I might disagree (unless of course we're talking semantics, but I don't think we are). Depending on your view of Christianity, "God" can be very different from one opinion to the next. For example, the "God" of the pentecostal "name it, claim it" word of faith teachers is NOT my God, because my God cannot be manipulated based on my desires (for more money... health... etc). MY God is sovereign. Someone wrote to me once when my daughter was in need of healing and told me, "We have prayed and told God that we will accept nothing short of complete healing from this burn - with absolutely NO scarring." While I appreciate the sentiment and good wishes, the God that woman is praying to is not my God, because my God will do as HE sees fit. When He says "I'm working all things for your good", it doesn't necessarily mean my comfort, or what I think is good. He sees the big picture and I trust Him to operate in my best interests. Do you see the difference?

I have not re-written the Bible to suit my needs. That's one of the reasons I love being able to look up the original Greek and Hebrew... because it's more difficult to twist it to suit my own purposes when I go directly to the original (or as original as I am able) source. I want to see what it really says... not what Eugene Peterson THINKS it says. That said, I know that there are many denominations who have done just what you've pointed out.

As far as each of us following the path that leads to Him... I'd be betraying my "fundie" roots if I told you I accept any path to God other than through His Son. There are various ways that each of us is drawn to Him, granted, but ultimately, it is belief in Christ that opens the door for communion with God. There is no other way (John 14:6).

I don't know which Bible says that but we are told to spread the word of God. It is not however something that is duty bound although other Christians might feel differently about that.

Matthew 28:19-20... "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." In the Greek, the word for "make disciples" (matheteuo) is in the imperative mood, so it's a command. I'd say that makes it something that is duty bound.


Thanks for opening up discussion on these things, forverserenity. I enjoy hearing what others believe and think, and having a forum to discuss things rationally. This is great fun

Awed in Space: Most people do hate to be wrong, especially when they feel very strongly about something. But being wrong doesn't mean someone's an idiot, it's humbling and one hopefully learns from the mistake, so admitting it and moving on is always best.

Do you see the difference?

Yes I do. Some people's approach is different than others. How they approach (or see) their faith might be different from how you and I approach (or see) ours.

it is belief in Christ that opens the door for communion with God. There is no other way (John 14:6).

This is true. Some Christians though don't think this way is the only way.

Matthew 28:19-20... "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." In the Greek, the word for "make disciples" (matheteuo) is in the imperative mood, so it's a command. I'd say that makes it something that is duty bound.

This is something that a good Christian will do. Some do it and others don't. Everyone does it in his or her own way, although with some churches there is only their way and nothing else. And that's the wrong approach to take.

Thanks for opening up discussion on these things, forverserenity. I enjoy hearing what others believe and think, and having a forum to discuss things rationally. This is great fun

Thanks HC! I'm glad you found it interesting, I did too!

Close, however not upon existence of god does the atheist depend, but upon the existence of the theist. Both can exist in the complete absence of god.

Close, but it's really all about God, rather than theists. The prefix "a" in atheism means "without", so atheism means "without God (Theos)", not "without theists".

Your claim that “Both can exist in the complete absence of god” is really a subjective view. As is my view that without God’s existence, nothing could exist at all. (In the face of the Infinite, we cannot escape appeals to subjectivity and faith. But as I've been saying, it’s more a question of attuning our inner-intuition, which will eventually supersede faith.)